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#1068 - Dr Peter Salerno - How Narcissists Hijack Your Brain

Modern Wisdom

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  • How Manipulators Warp Reality Confidence
    • Peter Salerno helps victims of manipulative relationships restore “reality confidence” by resolving traumatic cognitive dissonance after deception warps their sense of truth.
    • He explains victims often keep distorted beliefs because manipulators make evidence invisible and convince them contradictory realities are true. Transcript: Chris Williamson How do you describe what you do? Someone hasn’t met you before, they don’t know much about you, you’re at a cocktail party, how do you describe what you do? Peter Salerno I mean, my work focuses on, I mean, I’m a psychotherapist, that’s kind of like my trade, I’m licensed as a psychotherapist, I have a doctorate in psychology, so my background is in psychology And mental health. I would say what I do specifically is I do extensive research on the etiology or cause of personality disorders. Like that’s the type of diagnosis that I specialize in assessing, understanding. But one of the reasons I do it is actually not necessarily to treat personality disorders. I do it so that I help people understand in relationships where there’s a personality disorder, there’s often toxicity and conflict and strife and abuse, right? And so what I do is I help people restore their, what I would call their reality confidence following a toxic relationship. Because in these relationships, what happens is the individual who is the victim of somebody who is intentionally manipulative, deceptive, controlling, what happens is the victim Loses their sense of what’s actually true and real and what’s actually being manipulated. And so I help people following these types of high conflict or problematic abusive relationships kind of get their reality confidence back. (Time 0:00:00)
  • Antagonism Is The Core Of Cluster B Harm
    • Cluster B disorders (narcissistic, antisocial, histrionic, borderline) share antagonism: intentionally creating conflict, triangulation, deceit, and manipulation.
    • Salerno highlights grandiosity and entitlement as core antagonistic features that undermine equality in relationships. Transcript: Peter Salerno Yeah. So, I mean, I would say the personality disorders, and I’m just the messenger here, okay? But the personality disorders that we most often associate with interpersonal conflict, abuse, harm, are what we call the cluster B personality disorders. And so the reason why we cluster them together is because they have a lot of overlapping features. So it’s not really accurate to say that it’s convenient, but it’s not fully accurate to say that somebody just fits into one, you know, concrete category of disorder and we can just label Them as such and then there’s nothing else going on. Usually what’s happening is there’s quite a few traits or features of multiple personality disorders that are overlapping in one individual. And so it makes it even harder to really pinpoint what really is this person all about. But I would say that the pathological traits, the personality traits that we find common in the cluster B classification of disorders the ones that you’re going to find causing the Most interpersonal trouble and conflict in relationships. What would they, what are they named? So we have one of the main ones that’s sort of like an umbrella term is what we refer to as antagonism. Antagonism is a personality trait where people are oftentimes intentionally putting themselves at odds with another person, or they’re putting two other people at odds with one Another, literally to create drama, to create conflict, to escalate problems rather than solve them. So an example of antagonism is something that we refer to as like triangulation. So one person is intentionally going to tell another person something about someone else to create a rift. And then they’re going to deny that they did that. And so now the two people that didn’t even speak could be having thoughts and perceptions about each other based on this other person. That could be completely a fabrication. It could just be a lie. And now those two people are at odds with one another and they haven’t even communicated necessarily. It’s just this other person is deciding I’m going to create a rift in here because it might benefit them for those two people to not get along. (Time 0:03:43)
  • Cluster B Traits Are Highly Heritable
    • Narcissistic traits have substantial genetic and biological contributions; childhood adversity alone doesn’t fully explain these disorders.
    • Twin studies show ~50% heritability for traits and higher heritability for pathological personality features, making nature a major factor. Transcript: Peter Salerno So one of the things that is going to put my answer or set my answer apart is most of the people you’ve probably seen speak about this topic, personality disorders or narcissism, they’re Going to give you a different answer than I would give you based on what causes it. Most people have this idea or have adopted the idea that what causes it is actually childhood adversity or some sort of abuse or situation where the person learns to be this way. Chris Williamson Hurt people hurt people. Peter Salerno Precisely, yeah. I mean, that’s the most common answer you’ll get. I would fundamentally disagree with that because there’s a lot of new research that has come out within the last 20 years even that suggests that a lot of the traits that we use to describe The central features of something like a narcissism are actually just as much, if not more related, to the way somebody is just intrinsically built rather than the things that happen To them. So we’re going to go into like the, there’s no such thing as a nature-nurture debate because it’s always nature and nurture. So there’s no such thing as talking about one without the other. But what I’ve noticed in clinical research and clinical practice, and just in my field in general, is there is a lack of awareness among professionals of how much DNA and biology contribute To narcissistic traits and features across the lifespan in an individual, regardless of what has happened to them in early life and childhood. So what I mean by that is there is evidence to demonstrate that people can be highly narcissistic or have a personality disorder that’s more severe than, we’ll say, mild or moderate. And they could actually develop that disorder without any adversity or trauma or incidents of being hurt in their personal life. (Time 0:10:12)
  • Why Antisocial Traits Persist Evolutionarily
    • Cluster B traits likely persisted evolutionarily as useful strategies in certain contexts (immediate reward, impulsive decisions), not purely “evil.”
    • Salerno frames maladaptive extremes as overexpression of otherwise utility-serving traits like assertiveness or spontaneity. Transcript: Peter Salerno So the first question that we just talked about with heritability, we were asking essentially, why do individuals differ? Why would some person have more narcissism than the other, right? Now you’re asking an even, maybe not an even better question, but just as important as a question. Why the mechanisms in the first place? Like, did they serve some, you know, useful purpose or even non-useful? Evolutionary psychologists, I don’t want to speak for all of them, but some of them would say, this is just due to random variation. Like these traits exist in the human DNA, and they’re gonna reemerge in future generations, even if we try to wipe them out, just like cooperation would reemerge if we tried to wipe out All the cooperative people. So part of it is random variation. I think it’s just the nature of human DNA. We have these traits that exist. I think that these traits do serve certain purposes and certain contexts that are useful for immediate reward or immediate gratification, or even solving a very particular problem That could potentially require even impulse, right? We need like a spontaneous, impulsive, quick decision here. So we want to look at the utility in these traits too. They’re not all bad, and I wouldn’t even go so far as to say this is an issue related to good or evil. I think these traits in smaller doses could be extremely useful um and so they exist for that purpose when they get to the point where they’re on the extreme end of the quantitative dimension Meaning somebody is existing in life and in relationships hostile to the point where it’s problematic, that’s when we would say, well, whatever purpose it served, this isn’t the purpose. But we could even say that for positive traits, like agreeableness, for example. If you could be too agreeable, then if you’re pathologically agreeable, then it might be useful to be a bit more disagreeable in day-to life, right? So to answer your question, they exist because they exist. They evolve for, you know, randomness and also some useful purposes in extreme levels. (Time 0:18:18)
  • Therapy Can Change Brain Function In Many Cases
    • Don’t assume personality is fixed; brain networks, hormones, and therapy can change function and structure in some cases.
    • Salerno notes imaging shows brain changes after treatments like mentalization-based therapy, so intervention can help. Transcript: Chris Williamson What parts of the brain are involved in empathy and self-control? Have we looked at the brains of what’s going on? Is it dopamine overload? Is it the amygdala is firing too much? What’s going on? Peter Salerno This is something that I think is extremely important to bring to this conversation because I think oftentimes psychology stops at social and caregiving contributions, right? Like original environment and things like that. There are so many other systems involved in creating a personality or creating a trait, and you mentioned some of them. We’re talking about hormonal systems, the endocrine system, the nervous system, and then all of the brain networks that are communicating. I don’t really like to say that this is like, there’s such a thing as a narcissistic brain where there’s certain regions that look a certain way, so that’s a narcissistic brain. That’s a little too naive, I would say. But are there regions or areas in the brain that are indicative of things like a lack of empathy? Sure. Like, absolutely. We see that in certain brains. We see that in brain imaging. We also see structural and functional differences in brains pre and post therapy in individuals with personality disorders. They’ve done studies on child brains. They scan them prior to treatment and then scan them following treatment for tasks related to cognitive restructuring, mentalization-based treatment, and seeing that the function And structure of the brain does in fact change with certain interventions. Chris Williamson Okay. So this is not a complete lock-in we can’t intervene in (Time 0:21:56)
  • Lack Of Fear Learning Enables Persistent Harm
    • Some individuals show low fear learning and lack negative arousal, so they don’t learn from punishment and may find antisocial acts unrewarding to stop.
    • Their bodies may not produce the aversive signals that deter most people from harming others. Transcript: Peter Salerno So what we see, we see proactive or intentional forms of aggression in individuals who have like less activation when it comes to fear learning or consequences. So what I mean by that is some brains operate in a way where they don’t learn from mistakes through fear. The fear doesn’t register when they do something pretty horrific. So there’s no motivation to stop doing the behavior when the fear doesn’t kick in. There’s also no arousal in the body or in systems that would normally say, okay, we need to be a bit hyper-visionally here. We just did something. We don’t like the way it feels. In some individuals, those things don’t happen. So they don’t learn from the mistakes. So therefore there’s nothing in them registering to say we should stop doing this. What actually might be happening is it’s making them feel better to do it, right? And it could be an antisocial behavior. (Time 0:24:22)
  • Many Maladaptive Traits Feel Natural To The Person
    • Severe personality disorders are ego-syntonic: individuals feel comfortable with their traits and thus lack internal motivation to change.
    • Salerno emphasizes empathy and nurture can paradoxically be exploited, making therapy or kindness reinforce exploitative behavior. Transcript: Peter Salerno And interestingly enough too, with the severe personality disorders that create the interpersonal strife, more nurture and empathy for them actually makes them more exploitative. Chris Williamson Oh, hang on. Wait a second. You’re telling me that a lot of these people are immune to punishment and encouraged by empathy. Peter Salerno Yes. Now, we see this in clinical practice, which is interesting, because when you work with individuals who have severe personality disorders, they actively put wrenches in the therapy Process. They derail the process. Chris Williamson In what ways? Peter Salerno Well, they exploit your empathy and your unconditional positive regard for them and you believing their narrative. They exploit all that. (Time 0:28:20)
  • Use Your Emotional Reaction As A Deception Signal
    • Monitor transference and countertransference: notice feelings therapists or others experience (incompetence, dread) as clues to how the person affects others.
    • Salerno advises asking “Would I feel this with anyone else?” to detect manipulative dynamics quickly. Transcript: Peter Salerno When we’re talking about in a therapeutic context, something that’s really important to mention is transference and counter-transference. So do you want me to go into that for your audience? Give us a brief overview. Chris Williamson I learned that, interestingly, and I’m grinning because it’s one of the few things that I’ve learned from reading chick novels. I read The Silent Patient by Alex Michael Ades, Andrew Michael Ades. And in it, one of the main protagonists is a therapist who’s trying to get this patient to speak. And he goes to his head therapist who’s trying to help him get through this very difficult patient. And there’s this line, tell me about the transference and counter-transference. And this was as I was starting to do therapy about two years ago. And I went in all impressed with myself to tell my therapist that I learned what transference and counter-transference was. But I didn’t learn about it from proper research. I learned about it from reading like an absolute like usa today best-selling chick thriller uh but transference counter-transfer you’re sitting down with somebody with cluster Peter Salerno B etc yeah well i mean just just in general we all transfer and counter-transfer in life and human relationships it’s not just exclusive to therapy but it’s important to notice that It’s happening in therapy because it gives you a lot of information as far as what’s happening in the interaction so i mean transference uh in the simplest terms is the feelings that Are transferred onto the therapist by the patient counter-transference are some of the feelings or emotional reactions that take place inside of the therapist while they are in interacting With a patient. So the reason why that’s relevant is because we get to ask cool questions like, would I have been feeling this if I were sitting with anyone else right now? Or is this feeling that just got activated in me, is it directly related to the dynamic of this person that I’m interacting with? Because it starts to tell you information about how maybe other people are experiencing them outside of of therapy in their personal life that maybe they’re not super aware of and they Might actually even a narcissist could genuinely come into a therapy office and not have a clue why everybody thinks they’re so insensitive right um all the while the therapist is picking Up on their insensitivity and having a counter transference reaction to this insensitivity. Like, gosh, it feels hard to sit in a room with this person. I feel incompetent. I feel scared. I feel like different than I did before they showed up, right? (Time 0:31:22)
  • Manipulators Hijack Quick Emotional Judgments
    • Manipulators can hijack victims’ deception-detection networks, causing rapid unconscious shifts (feeling incompetent, fear) that stop analytical thinking.
    • Salerno warns these reactions occur in milliseconds and are exploited to dissolve defenses. Transcript: Peter Salerno Fear and dread. And it’s not always 100% conscious of what you fear or what the dread is, but you can all of a sudden come up with this feeling. We also have a deception detection network in our brain, which gets hijacked by these types of tactics. You feel it and you stop thinking. If you get somebody who’s good enough at manipulation, you could stop thinking, hmm, I’m feeling incompetent. I wasn’t before. Now I am. What’s that about? You might just think, maybe I’m not as good as I thought I was. And that would be a really important thing for a victim of a narcissist to say to themselves. Chris Williamson Maybe I’m not as good. Oh, of course. Because that’s dissolved their defenses around, I’m not in the wrong. They’re in the wrong. Right. Peter Salerno Yeah. And this happens in milliseconds, by the way. This is all happening unconsciously when you’re interacting with someone. So someone like me, I’m a few steps ahead, but not by any means immune. And I would never tell anybody, because even the foremost experts of this would never claim that they could never be sucker punched, um, daisied finessed. Chris Williamson Yeah. Peter Salerno But, um, it’s not really about becoming a human lie detector and knowing what, what everyone else is all about. That’s not what you’re trying to do, but, but you’re trying to notice when I’m with this particular person, I feel incompetent, I feel dread, I feel fear, I feel insecurity. And in most other relationships in my life, I don’t operate that way. (Time 0:36:46)
  • Investigate Inconsistencies After Love Bombing
    • Treat early idealization as a red flag: love-bombing and perfect mirroring are tactics to lower guard and gain investment.
    • Salerno recommends tracking inconsistencies and testing whether slips repeat to detect pattern-based manipulation. Transcript: Peter Salerno Well, like a narcissist who wants to be the center of attention is going to find a way to make an environment they’re in. They’re going to cultivate the environment and select things to say and do and operate in the environment to get what they want from it, which is attention. So they’re going to, they’re going to intentionally behave in ways that are attention seeking, whereas an introvert is going to intentionally behave in ways that draw attention to Others. And then they’re going to regroup privately rather than go get stimulated socially because that’s not, it doesn’t do it for them. Um, so whatever the treat is, those behaviors are going to, um, the, the, the behaviors that you engage in are going to be motivated to make that, to cultivate how you feel with that trait. Why is it, why is it called cluster B? Chris Williamson Is there a cluster A? Peter Salerno Yeah, there’s, yeah, that’s a good question. I mean, they’re, they’re called cluster disorders because the symptom, the features, not symptoms, the features and characteristics cluster together and overlap in the different Disorders. There’s cluster A. The cluster A’s are considered the odd and eccentric bunch. So odd, kind of bizarre behaviors, eccentric behaviors. The cluster B’s are the more interpersonally manipulative, exploitative, dramatic, erratic. So those are the cluster Bs. And then the cluster Cs are the anxious and fearful cluster. So disorders that operate around fear and anxiety being like the central feature, rather than drama or erratic or dangerous, (Time 0:43:00)
  • Don’t Excuse The First Red Flag
    • When you spot a slip, don’t rationalize it away; investigate for pattern convergence rather than resolving dissonance with prior positives.
    • Salerno explains confirmation bias pushes victims to excuse red flags, so counterintuitive vigilance is needed. Transcript: Peter Salerno Okay. So when there’s a slip that we typically, in hindsight, call a red flag, but as it’s happening, we have confirmation bias. No, it’s not that bad. It’s just, they’re just human. You need, there’s a slip so when the mask slips when there’s something that’s blatantly uh in contrast to their pro-social presentation that they gave you on the first or second or third Date where it was flawless and they’re the person of your dreams at the moment there’s something that’s a contradiction or inconsistency, no matter how benign or incidental it seems, You have to take it very seriously. And you need to start developing this idea in your head that you’re going to see, you’re going to repeat this investigation to see if a pattern converges. It’s a one-off. If it’s an isolated incident, then, you know, stay reasonably alert, but not hypervigilant. Just, okay, I note it. But this is where people go wrong. We naturally are not neutral information processors. We’re not. So we’re biased to information is my point. So if you want a relationship to work, cause you really liked that person on the first date and you really thought they were cute and you really liked that they live close to you. If they slip up, the, you’re going to use the prior information that you know about them to justify why you should still be with them. You’re humans don’t justify why they should not be with them, typically. That’s part of kinship, that’s part of evolution, that’s part of loss avoidance, right? So the first time there’s a red flag, you have to be counterintuitively attuned to it, Because it’s not going to come naturally for you to investigate it. What’s going to come naturally is for you to erase it and forget about it. That’s the second thing you do, is the moment there’s an issue that you could potentially test for a pattern, you need to investigate it. (Time 1:15:48)
  • Manipulators Use Survival Bias To Select Victims
    • Predators are opportunistic and “vet” broadly: they test pitches widely and keep those who tolerate repeated manipulative attempts.
    • Salerno compares them to used-car salespeople who persist with targets until someone accepts multiple pitches. Transcript: Peter Salerno I would say no. And here’s why. Chris Williamson Oh, they’re an equal opportunity attacker. Peter Salerno I think they vet everyone. And the analogy I use is often like the used car sales person. Anyone who shows up on the lot, they’re going to try to sell a used car to. They’re not going to try to figure out how vulnerable you are. They’re going to just start doing their things, their pitches first. They will stick around the people who take the second, third, fourth, and fifth pitch. I mean, the one that just walks away outright, they’re not going to necessarily follow home. Oh, they’re just split testing for who’s got sufficient resilience to put up with. There will eventually be somebody who is resilient enough, not because they’re flawed, but because they just have a lot of resilience, who will take the fifth and sixth and seventh Piece of BS and not fact check or do anything. And then those are the ones they’ll latch onto. Chris Williamson So actually it is, it’s not necessarily that the, well, it is a kind of selection, but it’s closer to natural selection than conscious selection. Yes. They’re going to put out a particular type of behavior and there is going to be a drop-off and a survival bias is going to kick in and whoever is left. (Time 1:19:06)
  • Protect Strengths Without Blaming Yourself
    • You don’t need to overhaul your personality to avoid manipulation; the risk is being exploited for existing strengths like kindness or forgiveness.
    • Salerno warns therapists often wrongly blame victims’ childhoods instead of recognizing opportunistic exploiters. Transcript: Peter Salerno I’m cautious. I don’t want people to think that they have to do a personality makeover to avoid this either. Unfortunately, a lot of people that I’ve worked with and that I’ve consulted with, they tell me that they’ve gone to three or four therapists who have told them this only happened because You’re codependent or because you haven’t used your attachment or because you didn’t work out your childhood issues with your mom and you were vulnerable to this. That’s not necessarily true. It might be that we have to come to terms with the fact that there are people who don’t play by the social rules we’ve decided are beneficial. And so they’re going to pretend to play by them and then they’re going to exploit you. And it’s not that you had a bad childhood or your relationship with your dad wasn’t strong enough. It’s just that the person found an opportunity. They’re preferential and opportunistic. (Time 1:23:17)
  • Charm Comes From Convincing Self Concept Not Looks
    • Cluster B individuals often appear attractive because they convincingly project an inflated self-concept, not necessarily due to objective looks.
    • Salerno notes confidence is used as a proxy for competence and arrogance can masquerade as calm self-assurance. Transcript: Peter Salerno Why do you ask? That’s an interesting question. Chris Williamson I was wondering whether there is a physical manifestation that goes along with the behavioral trait. Yeah, that’s a good question. Peter Salerno Um, That’d be a good question for an evolutionary psychologist too. But I’ll answer it kind of generically, if you will. I think there’s an interesting correlation. It’s common for them to be attractive. There’s not a particular physical type though. I don’t want to give off that idea. Short, tall, big. I think what it has more to do with is someone’s, not their actual physical appearance, but their self-concept. They have a very high self-concept. So it’s almost like they have this way of convincing you to believe about them what they believe about themselves, even if it’s not objectively true. (Time 1:25:07)
  • Sustained Accountability Is Rare In Cluster B People
    • Cluster B people can mimic pro-social emotions effectively but cannot sustain genuine collaboration or accountability long-term.
    • Salerno says their performative cooperation will slip into contradiction because they lack long-term regulatory functions. Transcript: Peter Salerno Something they wouldn’t do often collaborate or take accountability. Even performatively, rather. Yeah. I mean, they don’t really have the capacity to do it all the time, even in a feigned way, where they’re constantly in character. I mean, it’ll slip eventually. There’ll be a contradiction or an inconsistency. Because they lack the function to use a thought properly long-term to say, oh, this is probably a time where I should be agreeable. They lack that function. They can do it temporarily, but they can’t maintain it permanently. (Time 1:31:25)
  • How Parenting Can Amplify Narcissism
    • If you wanted to exacerbate narcissism in a child, repeatedly challenge their grandiosity and then soothe tantrums with indulgent affection; that pattern reinforces entitled behavior.
    • Salerno contrasts different parental strategies that amplify specific cluster B outcomes. Transcript: Peter Salerno So what would be the environment to ideally produce a cluster B? Yes. Chris Williamson Let’s say, as we’ve identified earlier on, the raw materials need to be there in some form or another. Let’s say you’ve got, you know, you’ve got a good, a good raw material child and you’re going to try and maximize the expression of that through childhood into adulthood so that it’s The most cluster B person that we can get out of these raw materials. What would you do to that person in early childhood, adulthood, everything? Yeah. Peter Salerno It depends on the disorder, but it’s such a great question. It’s such a great thought experiment. If it were a narcissist, you would challenge their superiority and their grandiosity every time. So you would enforce boundaries. You’d tell them people are equal. You would nurture them with kindness and love when they felt misunderstood. Those things would actually exacerbate their narcissism. If they have the trait profile, it’s startup for narcissism. So you would challenge their superiority. You would try to convince them people are equal. And then you would nurture them with love and affection when they had tantrums. (Time 1:33:20)
  • Cluster B Traits Are Much More Common Than You Think
    • Prevalence estimates suggest 15–19% of the general population show disordered-level Cluster B traits, roughly one in six to one in five people.
    • Salerno cautions variations exist by subtype and sample, but overall prevalence is substantial. Transcript: Peter Salerno I would say in the general population, based on most recent numbers and trainings that I’ve attended related to this, to prevalence estimates and stuff, like 15 to 19% of the population. Chris Williamson So one in five, nearly one in five, one in five, one in six. Does it skew? Is there a sex difference here? Peter Salerno Not significant. Chris Williamson No more male psychopaths? No more female narcissists? Peter Salerno In certain population samples. But I would say most of the time, I would say in the general population, it’s probably not too outrageous to say that it’s almost even. It’s almost half. Chris Williamson What about when you drill down into a few other populations? Peter Salerno Well, that’s why I’m kind of hesitant, because if we look at the borderline personality, which is a cluster B personality, the prevalence estimates are gender prevalence is 54 and 46, with it being more predominantly female. (Time 1:38:26)