Podcast

#910 - Dr Julie Smith - The Science of Emotional Intelligence & Self-Understanding

Modern Wisdom

Last highlighted March 10, 2025 Source ↗ ← All highlights

Difficulty Understanding Emotions
- Emotions are complex and varied, making them hard to understand and express.
- Humans lack a precise vocabulary and comprehensive models for grasping emotions fully. Transcript: Chris Williamson Why are emotions so hard to understand for humans? Julie Smith Well, we’re going to start with a big question, Zoe Chris. Chris Williamson In the deep end. Julie Smith Yeah, well, I guess I’ve made a bit of a career out of working with people on their emotions. And as a psychologist, you know, I was in the NHS for 10 years, and then I worked in a very kind of small private practice. I would say you know all of that work however diverse it was in terms of what people were dealing with mostly the common problem was there’s this feeling or set of feelings that I have and I don’t want to have them and there’s these other feelings that I would like to have more of the time but I’m not sure how to access them. And nobody has this sort of manual for how to manage emotions and how to understand them. And we don’t even really have a great vocabulary for that. You know, we’re quite limited in, you think about the sort of, the diversity of the different sort of minute feelings that you can have throughout the day that apply to different situations They’re all slightly different you know if you say i feel um joy one minute but joy in a certain scenario might feel quite different to joy in a different scenario you know the qualitative Differences are there and you can feel that but we don’t necessarily have the words to express it and we certainly don’t’t have the sort of models to understand it. And, you know, it’s only in recent years that people have even started to talk about them. So we’re in the early stages, but it’s, you know, exciting. Chris Williamson Are we doomed to fail in some regard there as humans that we have this very rich inner experience, which is very difficult to communicate, to measure, to understand, to export to somebody Else. Hey, this is what I’m feeling. And then you have just this limited language, which is constrained not only by the words you know, but even by the language. German has a ton of words that we don’t have in other languages that almost unlocks your ability to understand emotions in that way. Are we fated to kind of always be scrabbling to try and understand emotions, but never fully doing it? Julie Smith No, and I don’t think it’s necessarily sort of our failure or our limitation that emotions can’t be measured and quantified. I think it’s a limitation of the method, isn’t it? Why do we want to? We don’t have to do that in order to want, you know, there was that real push actually, you know, in my career where we were asked to sort of, you know, measure things on scales and numbers. And actually, when you looked at how that would be applied in the room with someone when you’re working with someone, it was sort of really, really limited in how helpful it could be. You know, if someone came back with some kind of mood diary in which they’d kind of added a scale of, and you get this a lot on apps, don’t you? You know, rate how you feel today out of 10 and really doesn’t tell you much at all because you don’t feel it on a scale. You don’t feel a number. You have a set of feelings that are kind of different and sometimes deep and sometimes complex and sometimes confusing. (Time 0:00:00)
Managing Overthinking
- Address overthinking by examining overall stress levels, not just individual thoughts.
- Recognize that overthinking is a stress response, not a personal flaw. Transcript: Julie Smith Your advice for people who are overthinking everything well I think this is actually a really popular subject online people I think it’s something lots of people are dealing with and And that’s because I think the way that life is set up now, right, we’re all expected to do all the technology that we have. In theory, life should be really easy. It was all sold to us as if that will make life easier and you’ll have more time on your hands. And actually, all that happened was we increased our expectation about how much we get done and how much we can handle. And so what we’re dealing with in terms of mental load is so much more than what, you know, would have. And actually, you know, the way that life is set up now, away from traditional roles where, you know, a man might go out to work and a woman would take care of the family. Those things were separated. But now both people are trying to do both. Actually, you’re both taking on two full-time jobs. And so the mental load is there. And so it makes sense that people are living at a higher level of stress all the time. And when your stress level, your arousal level is higher, you’re more vulnerable to overthinking. So a lot of people think, I’m overthinking something because there’s something wrong with me or I’m just a worrier and I always say to people don’t label yourself as just a worrier because That gives you that sense that you can’t overturn it or you can’t do anything about it which is wrong um you know it it’s a habit as much as anything else but it’s also something that is more Likely to happen when you’re already stressed. So, you know, if someone came into the room with me and said, you know, I’m just overthinking everything, what shall I do? Actually, what we would look at is life as a whole, the full context of, it’s not only what are you overthinking and how can you stop thinking about it in that way, it’s, you know, what is Going with the your stress levels in general that’s causing you to be at that state where you’re looking for the worst case scenarios so because that’s what you’re set up to do right it’s Not a fault in your brain your brain’s doing a really good job you’re probably giving your brain lots of some sort of lots of signs rather that um things aren’t okay you know you’re maybe Your blood pressure’s high maybe you’re on the go all day and so your brain is getting those signals from in your body and from your surroundings that we’re not all, you know, not all is Well here, that there’s a lot going on. We’ve got a lot to deal with. Be alert because something could be unpredictable here. So that’s your kind of state of readiness. So I think when you’re dealing with overthinking, it’s important not to just deal with overthinking, but to look at everything as a whole. (Time 0:03:26)
Reframing Fear
- Julie Smith rewrote her book’s fear chapter after a cancer diagnosis.
- Her revised chapter emphasizes using fear as information and taking proactive action. Transcript: Chris Williamson About fear as well? Because I think that this is kind of a two pronged challenge that people have. A lot of fear, a lot of concern about making decisions about whether or not I’m doing the right thing. Julie Smith Very visceral emotion how can people better deal with fear yes do you know i um i actually rewrote the chapter on fear in this book when so over the summer i went through um uh some health Problems i was diagnosed with cancer and uh at that point i was about six weeks away from finishing the book. Yeah, no. Yeah, I was six weeks away when I started going for tests. And then I was about two weeks away from handing the book in when I got my diagnosis. So I was so determined to finish the book. And at that point, I was just reading it through. And I just happened to read through the chapter on fear the day after. And I thought, this isn’t what I need to hear right now. This isn’t right. Chris Williamson What was wrong with it? Julie Smith Hit, delete. So it was probably more gentle than I wanted, than I personally needed. And I think generally that can happen. You know, lots of people do need that approach. But at the time I got selfish with it and I thought, I need something a bit different to this. So I hit delete and I rewrote it for myself. So it’s much more about in that moment, okay, fear is here and it’s necessary and it’s information. It’s telling me that not all is well and I need to be alert and I need to think about how to work through this and so I’m going to use that fear but I’m not going to be the victim in this I’m not Going to be the you know there’s often when you talk people talk about cancer there’s often this idea that that thing is attacking you and your victim to it and I just did not want to be in That place at all and so I wanted to kind of turn the tables and so in the chapter I talk about this idea of you know choosing to be the prey instead of the choosing to be the predator instead Of the prey so sort of always being on the front foot and forward motion and looking at what’s my plan and what am I going to do next and taking action so that I didn’t feel, you know, because You can feel, you still feel fear when you’re on the front foot, but you’re using it. And that feels so fundamentally different to sitting in fear and just allowing it to implode. (Time 0:10:08)
Navigating Uncertainty
- During uncertainty, narrow your focus to the next actionable step.
- Taking action, even small steps, creates forward momentum and reduces anxiety. Transcript: Chris Williamson You know, reflecting, I guess, on the last year for yourself, what’s your advice to somebody who is going through a tough time with their health, uncertainty, fear of the future? You know, this is the personal and the professional colliding for you, I suppose. Yeah. What did you, what would you say to somebody? Julie Smith I think when uncertainty is, I mean, that’s the big thing about something like that. And you don’t, when it happens as well, it’s not like this sort of big dramatic moment where you suddenly, you know what the diagnosis is, you know what the plan is, you know what the risk Is. It doesn’t really happen like that. It’s all in stages. So there is this sort of big period of being really uncertain about everything and not knowing what to do with that um and then not knowing who you can really share that with because you Don’t want to scare the living delights out of everybody else that you love um and so when there is such uncertainty in that way the way that i dealt with it and would do in again in the future Is just narrow everything down, narrow your focus down. What’s the next move? What’s the next step? And let’s take that, get that bit done, take action. What would be an example of that? So actually, it was a really kind of strange experience where the day I got diagnosed, the day after the consultant I was under was about to go on holiday for two weeks. And then we had a holiday booked for two weeks after that and um and once he went um some more tests came back and the the treatments or the recommendations were changed but the team wouldn’t Tell me what they were because that was his role to do that um so i was sort of thinking okay they’re not going to tell me so it must be something bad do i cancel my holiday what do i do and there’s All these kind of um you know uncertainties around what to do and and i could feel myself i was sat there trying to edit the book and and it was just consuming me and and i’m rightly so right My brain saying hang a minute, let’s sort this out. And I could feel that sort of sense of just being in turmoil, not being able to affect anything or control anything and just waiting. I thought, I’m not doing this. There’s no way. My husband came home from work and we just we started doing lots of research on surgeons and consultants. And, you know, we’re lucky enough that we were in a position to go and pay to go and see someone. But, you know, I started asking medics I know for recommendations, found someone that was nearby, made those calls, got those appointments. And in the process of just doing that, you know, nothing’s changed in theory, but I am moving forward and taking action. And it felt just fundamentally different to, you know, I wasn’t sitting there shaking and weeping. I was, okay, what’s the next call we can make? Who, you know, how much does that cost? What can we do? Who can we see? And, um and we did and and it actually helped the process um and I you know found someone to um you know do the surgery for me and all that kind of thing and and it was really positive um but Yeah I think sitting there like and that’s where I got that feeling of the rabbit in headlights I’m not going to sit here like a rabbit in headlights I’m going to move forward and I’m going To do something. And you can’t in every situation, not in every situation, you can do that. But, um, you know, I’m lucky enough that, um, uh, touch words, I’m lucky enough that I was in that position where I could, you know, affect the outcome. Trying (Time 0:18:00)
Understanding Childhood
- Understand childhood experiences constructively with outside help to avoid resentment.
- Use childhood insights to break negative cycles and improve current relationships. Transcript: Chris Williamson How can people better understand their childhoods? Julie Smith In terms of understanding your childhood, I think it really helps to do, a lot of people are doing that online with kind of bits of information that come up on you know videos and stuff Like that um but i think if you want to do it in depth in a really constructive way that’s truly going to help you and not send you into kind of resentment and bitterness about everything Your parents got wrong then um it does help to do that with somebody else um where you can look at it in a constructive way that’s actually going to help because you know there’s utility In going back and and and processing that and and creating that sort of um uh sort of narrative really a timeline of okay this happened and that influenced me in this way and this happened And and then you know and and that’s that’s really useful but sometimes if it’s not constructive it just becomes a rant of everything that was done wrong for me and and all the negative Impact that’s had on my life and that’s quite dangerous in some ways because you can then get into that that cycle of that sort of turmoil really of resentment and and feeling like a victim Of it um whereas when you do that constructively for example when you do that in therapy it’ll be a fairly balanced uh view and it will kind of look at the things that you wouldn’t change And the things that you might do and how they’ve impacted you now and how if something that happened in your childhood got you stuck into a certain cycle of, I don’t know, something that You do in your relationships today that you’d rather not, then you’re using that, right? You’re going to use that to then break the cycle because you’re going to use that to say, okay, I know what I’m doing now. It’s because of something that happened earlier on and I’m going to choose to do something different. I’m going to break that cycle. So it can be really, really productive, but it has to be carefully done, I think. (Time 0:22:51)
Forgiving Parents
- Parents often operate from their own unresolved childhood experiences and limitations.
- Healing requires focusing on building a healthy adult relationship with parents, not seeking apologies. Transcript: Chris Williamson What about if, I mean, everybody’s parents will have made mistakes, some larger than others. Can people learn to get back to neutral with something that they can’t go back and change? There is no time machine to go and fix whatever it is. They feel like they’ve inherited this version of themselves that their parents created, the pathologies, the thought patterns, the biases, the ways of seeing the world and themselves And the inner voice and all of that stuff. If our parents got it wrong and in the ways that our parents got it wrong, how can we become more at peace with that? Julie Smith I think in some ways, a part of that work is understanding where your parents have come from and that they more than likely had their own complex childhoods in which they had their own, You know, damage that was done and cycles that they were stuck in. And probably, you know, they were sort of growing up in an era where there wasn’t that education around this kind of stuff and there wasn’t that insight. And so they would have been living out their own coping strategies with whatever they were dealing with. So I think that’s part of it is understanding that doesn’t make it okay if your parents were you know horribly abusive but it’s it’s one way of understanding these cycles that people Get stuck in and how damage can be caused often without intention um but also there’s a degree of um you know in that parent-child relationship often we carry the parent-child relationship Into adulthood and and we still behave like the child in that relationship just what i was about to say yeah in a sense that we we give all the responsibility to our parents making it a good Relationship. And actually, what you have now is an adult to adult relationship in which you get to decide you can’t change your parents. And actually, often people assume that if I could just convince my parents and help them to see the damage that they did and get that apology that everything would be better. And, you know, but but a lot of parents won’t necessarily have any more insight than they had when you were a child and so i think we can’t sort of rest our idea of healing on that on getting Those apologies or getting their insight um because often they don’t have it and and often it’s about developing a relationship with our parents that they are capable of as well. So that we’re not expecting more of them than they’re actually able to give. (Time 0:24:56)
Managing Parental Guilt
- Parental guilt is normal; listen to it, but don’t let it dictate every decision.
- Clarify your values to make guilt-laden choices easier and avoid unwarranted guilt. Transcript: Chris Williamson That’s functionhealth.com/modern wisdom. I imagine that a lot of parents, I’m not one yet, but I imagine a lot of parents have the reverse problem, which is that they’re terrified of getting it wrong for their kids as they’re raising Them or shortly after they’ve raised them. What is your advice there? Julie Smith It is part and parcel of the whole experience and you feel it for a woman. As a woman, you feel that from the moment you know you’re pregnant and suddenly everything you do is about somebody else. And so you feel guilt no matter what you do, really. And with feelings of guilt, it’s important to listen to it as well. I mean, there’s kind of, you know, there’s stuff online about sort of parent guilt and how, you know, you shouldn’t feel it or you should ignore it and do what’s good for you. And that’s fine. You know, there are moments, you know, that might be in the context of taking a break because it’s difficult to do that and take time for yourself. And that’s when you, you know, acknowledge that guilt and you take it with you because you know this is the right thing to do. And there are other times when it’s important to listen to that guilt more deeply and go, well, am I feeding that because I’m not living in line with my values as a parent and um so I don’t Know um uh if I you know feel guilty about coming here so so coming to London for a couple of days doing some interviews there’s a sense of I don’t want to leave you guys and and if one of my Children got upset um which they didn’t but if they did but um I would feel that sort of oh why am i leaving and that’s at the point where i have to get that clarity of the situation where i’m Doing this because um it benefits the family like the payoffs thing right your dad’s at work all day that kind of thing um they’re difficult decisions and by having your values really Clear in your mind about why you’re doing something, it’s easier then to kind of not make the guilt go away. You just, you’re willing to take it with you. So you get it in your backpack and you, you know, you take it with you because you know, you’re doing the right thing. And because sometimes that feeling is, is not based on something that’s warranted. You know, sometimes it’s, you know, if you’re, I don’t know, a people pleaser or something because of how things were set up in your childhood, you’ll probably feel guilty all the time When you feel like you might have, you know, upset someone. And that’s not necessarily warranted, that’s a pattern. So sometimes you know if we if we engage in sort of emotional reasoning right which is that bias of i feel it therefore it’s true uh that can get us into all sorts of trouble so if because I feel guilt that means i’m a terrible parent then i’m gonna have a terrible time (Time 0:36:10)
Addressing People-Pleasing
- People-pleasing prioritizes others’ feelings over one’s own well-being, creating unhealthy dynamics.
- It differs from genuine kindness; address it through assertiveness training and boundary setting. Transcript: Chris Williamson Or maybe it’d be really great, or maybe it’d be really terrible, and time will tell. You mentioned before about people-pleasing. This is something that over the last year or so, I’ve realized that maybe a pathology I’m more familiar with than I realized. What have you come to learn about people-pleasing, people-pleases, where it comes from? Julie Smith Yeah, so, you know, often it makes sense. You know, often these things feel confusing until you hear someone’s story and then it makes complete sense. And you kind of, I’ve had so many of these moments with people in the room where, you know, they come in and think, you’re just not going to understand this. This is just bizarre and complex and I don’t get it. And then you spend a decent amount of time going through someone’s story. And then you get to this lovely point where you kind of say to each other, of course, of course it is this way. How could it not be given everything that’s happened? And, you know, there isn’t sort of one story or one scenario that always leads to people pleasing there are lots of different ones and but I think it’s important to distinguish that people Pleasing isn’t being a nice person it’s it’s so much more than that it’s um it’s being absolutely vigilant to how other people feel and placing that as your absolute priority over and Above your own well-being, your own health, anything. So, you know, it’s just terrifying the thought of displeasing someone else or experiencing their disapproval or them not liking you or rejecting you. And so you know i’ve seen people who live in in turmoil um trying to please everybody around them and keep them pleased uh which is not sustainable and so it creates chaos where you know You’re you’re constantly chasing your tail and and it gives other people a lot of power over you so you can end up in in relationships that are sort of exploitive or um just not healthy For you um and and yeah so I think it’s one of those things that’s sort of banded around um and and it’s something that a lot of us kind of do in bits and bobs. Yeah, sometimes I’m like that or in certain situations I’m like that. And some people spend their lives really, really struggling with it. (Time 0:43:04)
Building Assertiveness
- Practice assertiveness in low-stakes situations to build confidence.
- Gradually increase the difficulty of situations where you assert your needs. Transcript: Chris Williamson Because both me and you are fans of sort of emotionally informed therapy and people understanding their emotions. I also think it’s very interesting. I think it’s one of the most interesting things that you can do. And yet, I imagine that you have a similar problem to me as the overuse of therapy speak online to describe like, this person wasn’t mean to me, they were narcissistic or they caused me Trauma. You know, I’m not sad, I’m depressed. And the sort of the straying over into you crossed a boundary, that’s one of my boundaries, etc, etc. So people, a lot of the time, will say yes to things when they mean to say no, or they want to say no, they want to become firmer at being able to disappoint those around them. How can they become better at that? Julie Smith I think it’s one of the most important skills anyone will ever learn, actually, because you’re, you put yourself at risk. If you can’t say no when you need to, or you can’t hold boundaries, and there’s that people pleasing tendency. So if everything is about everybody else, and what they want from you um and that’s where it’s not the same as being a nice person so you know if you’re um if everybody else’s needs and wishes And desires come first and you don’t have the ability to put a stop to that when it doesn’t fit then you’ll end up doing things that you regret and don’t fit with your values or that don’t Feel like you’re being a nice person, but it’s because somebody else has more power over your behavior than you do. So I think assertiveness skills are a big part of what’s taught in therapy, actually. Teaching people to manage difficult people and people who perhaps have more power in a relationship or, you know, it kind of sounds easy to be able to say no. And it’s not because it’s always packed out with lots of emotion and the complex dynamics between two people. And so it can be really difficult. But it’s absolutely learnable. And so that’s where it’s important to remember that even if you’ve had a habit for life of putting everybody else first and being the, I don’t mind, I’m fine, you know, whatever you think Type person, that you can begin to change. But it’s often about learning specific skills. Chris Williamson Why do you start? What are the skills? Julie Smith So a lot of it is practice in lighthearted ways. We talked about the sort of acting opposite to urges, using polos and situations that aren’t necessarily the most emotive, the most difficult for you. You kind of grade situations. You could even make a list to be fair so you can make a list of the different situations where it’s difficult to be assertive or state your own needs and you take the easiest one and you start With that and you practice and you have a go and then you come back and you see how it went what went well what would you know and um so i was working with someone on um on dealing with those Kind of assertiveness skills or needing to stay your ownies in a workplace and, you know, going home on time or taking a holiday, those sorts of things. And so we started with something really that felt the easiest. And then we just assessed it. So, you know, stress test things and then learn from it. Actually, the anticipatory anxiety about it was much worse than actually the awkward moment of saying what I needed to say. And their reaction was not as bad as I thought it would be. You know, I had all that fear and discomfort, but that died down as soon as the moment was over. And then actually I got what I needed and the situation was better than it would have been and I’m not living in resentment. So when you start small, you get these small victories that give you that momentum and give you that sort of drive to move forward and go for the next challenge. But you can’t expect to suddenly go, right, from now on, I’m going to be boundaried and assertive strong and… Chris Williamson We’re going to be an overnight hard ass. Julie Smith Yeah, right. It’s just not going to happen. You have to do these things gradually and start with the easiest thing. Something that almost feels a bit silly, that’s so easy. It’s almost a bit kind of, really, am I starting here? But then you get that little easy victory and then you move on to the next one, which is a little bit more difficult and so on. That (Time 0:45:45)
Dealing with Passive Aggression
- Passive-aggressive behavior creates subtle discomfort and self-doubt.
- It thrives on deniability, making direct confrontation difficult but necessary. Transcript: Chris Williamson What’s your advice for dealing with passive aggressive people? Julie Smith Oh, so with passive aggressive behavior, I think it’s one of those things that you feel it very subtly. So, and you start to question yourself. I think that’s one of the key signs is that, you know, something will happen. Maybe it’s a compliment that feels more like an insult or something that’s where on the surface, everything seems friendly, superficially, but you come away feeling like you’re not Sure if they really liked you or you come away feeling sort of wounded in some way. Is inviting you in to become, especially if someone is being a passive aggressive by taking on role of a victim in a situation, they’re inviting you to come in as a perpetrator. And passive aggressive behavior is one of those things that it’s really difficult to pinpoint exactly what it was. And… Chris Williamson Well, the culpable deniability is the entire reason for the passive aggression. Julie Smith Yeah. So someone could, you know, I don’t know, let’s say, you know, something great’s happened in your life. You’ve been really successful. One of your friends has a problem with that. And so start sort of ignoring you or trying to exclude you and stuff. But as soon as you pick up on that and say, are we all right? Then all is denied, right? Everything’s fine. I’ve just been busy. I haven’t been able to, you know. And so you’re kind of stuck in this place of, I can’t really address it because they will deny it. And yeah, I feel terrible and I don’t feel connected to this person anymore. I feel like they maybe don’t like me or something’s going on. And the trouble is the more you then get sucked into kind of joining the circus in that way and playing the game, the more you lose, I think. Watching and learning you know if someone reveals themselves to you that they’re not okay with you in a certain way or um that that friendship is now conditional on you i don’t know making Yourself smaller or um not doing certain things or associating with certain people um then all you can do is learn from that and make your own decisions then about whether that’s a friendship For you or whether that’s something that the friendship can overcome you know it might be a blip but it might also be something bigger yeah (Time 0:56:11)
Arguing Constructively
- Prioritize being loved over winning arguments in relationships.
- Focus on reconnection and repair, not proving right or wrong. Transcript: Chris Williamson Get back to talking to Julie in one minute. But first, I need to tell you about Maui Nui. Not all meat is created equal, and that is why I partnered with Maui Nui. Not only does their meat taste amazing, it’s actively combating the environmental destruction caused by Maui’s axis deer overpopulation. It has the highest protein per calorie ratio on the market, up to 53% more than grass-fed beef, and it is the only stress-free, 100% wild-harvested red meat available. Their venison sticks are with me whenever I travel. These are phenomenal. They taste unreal. Nine grams of protein. I love them. They’re a complete life hack. You need to get more protein in your diet, and this is going to help. You can get the healthiest red meat on the planet delivered directly to your door by going to the link in the description below or heading to mauinuivenison.com/modernwisdom using The code at checkout that’s m-a venison.com/modern wisdom and modern wisdom at checkout i suppose a lot of the time the sort of disagreements i guess before the relationship breaks Down, the kind of arguments that people have. I had Ben Shapiro on the show recently, who’s a good debater, and he mentioned that he has to remind himself that being loved by his wife is more important than winning an argument. Because a lot of the time, regardless of whether he’s in the right or in the wrong, he’s very well trained. It’s like saying, I got into a fist fight and I’m an MMA fighter. Um he has a very particular set of skills humans hate being so wrong so much i think that we can become myopic about this sort of stuff we just don’t want to lose the argument to our partner Yeah even if we might be in the wrong even if the outcome results in us being more miserable or things being more sad. What’s your advice for better disagreements and for sort of letting go of this need to win arguments? Julie Smith It’s interesting, isn’t it? Because when you’re in the moment and you’re angry with someone, it feels as if the best feeling is going to be when you prove that you’re right and you come out on top and you’re the only Person that thinks you look good when you win. And actually, if you’re in a loving relationship with someone and you prove yourself right and you feel like you’ve won the argument, what the other person then feels is probably a bit Crushed and a bit disappointed in you for uh being so ruthless with them and and so it’s so important and i think you learn this over time the longer that you’re in relationships you learn How to argue in a way that leads to reconnection and uh the the aim is no longer to work out who’s winning and and whether the relationship is going to continue the aim is to resolve it in A way that doesn’t hurt either of you too much and um and arguments that focus on reconnection and repair as opposed to winner and loser, lead to much, much stronger relationships in Which you can argue and still trust each other. Chris Williamson 20s bro science stuff uh where i noticed that the tone that was set at the very beginning of a relationship that i would get into very much sort of determined expectations down the line That um you know during the first you know six months or whatever three months where everything’s amazing uh the expectations coming down the line if you spend four nights a week together Because you’re besotted and you can’t think about anything except for them, et cetera, et cetera. But really where you want to bring this relationship into land is you probably see each other two nights a week or whatever. Particular demeanor that you have in the beginning, maybe you’re more aloof, you’re playing it more cool, or maybe you’re more lovey-dovey or whatever it might be, that that tone setting In the beginning is highly determinant of what is expected down the line. And quite rightly so. Like, this is the relationship that I got into. What’s this one? Like, what’s happened with this sort of adjustment here? But I get the sense that with disagreement, with attachment style, with regulation co-regulation with the way that you um make up after you’ve argued etc uh setting the tone for that As early as possible as well is maybe even more important because that is going to determine or at least my current working theory is that most relationships live and die not on how happy You guys are together, but how well you disagree. Because insufficient happiness may be a reason for a relationship to break up, but what’s more likely is too much disagreement, too much unhappiness, right? Let’s get past that first, because that predicates you being able to access the happiness thing in any case. And yeah, the sort of direct communication that, hey, when X happened, I felt Y. I’m sure it wasn’t your fault. I’m sure that you didn’t mean to make me feel that way. But I don’t want to lie to you. I just want this to be out there. And this is a collaborative process, almost treating the relationship like a third person and being like, look, we have this thing, which is the way that we’re enmeshed together. And I want to do things that allow that to flourish as much as possible. Yeah. Julie Smith Yeah. And also it’s okay to, um, for it not to be perfect at the beginning. So, you know, I’ve been with my husband for like 20 years and we don’t argue in the same way that we did when we first got together you learn to argue you learn to yeah your relationship evolves And as long as you’re always doing your best to try and improve on yourself and how what you bring to the relationship and making adjustments when things don’t work well um then what you Have is this amazing flourishing strengthening thing over time um whereas i think you know if you if you base your choice about whether you continue a relationship on um you know, how You’re arguing right now, as if that’s the only way it can ever happen, then you might end a relationship that could have improved or got better. So it’s all about sort of learning from each experience, isn’t it? And then trying to, you know, do better if you feel like you’ve not really bought your best. Getting (Time 1:10:20)
Managing Inner Critic
- Treat your inner voice like a supportive coach, not a bully.
- Self-criticism can hinder growth; replace it with honest but respectful self-talk. Transcript: Julie Smith Onto the individual, what’s your advice to people that have got a critical inner voice do you know what in in my years of uh sort of doing therapy with people i’ve come across so many people Who are highly self-critical painfully so and yet hold on to it for dear life because they think that that’s their source of drive and motivation and productivity and achievement and So they’ll defend it like it’s doing something for them um and until they learn that actually it’s probably doing damage or it’s holding them back. Because often they’ll come with some other problem and won’t necessarily recognize that it’s being perpetuated by that tendency to not only be self-critical, but just psychologically Hammering yourself into the ground when things go wrong or when you’re not perfect and that sort of thing um but i always like talking to people about the idea of okay we all want to do well In life right we want to you know be at our best and but if you take that idea and you take i don’t know elite athletes there is no elite athlete out there that um not to have a coach or support Around them to do their best right they recognize that that’s helpful but they also don’t choose their high school bully to come and coach them and and come along to them with the come Along to competitions with them or they’ll choose someone that they trust someone that is honest with them but delivers that honesty with respect, and someone who genuinely wants Them to be at their best and achieve. And so if you take the idea of a sports coach and everything that they have to embody to be decent at that job, to get the most out of someone, why wouldn’t you want to also do that for yourself In your own head um you know the differences um between you know that kind of high school bully sound or you know the um you know abusive parent or whoever that voice is in your mind that Is never going to get um the kind of outcome that you would get from you know a really good coach or someone who genuinely wants the best for you? Chris Williamson It’s a great realization. It’s a really lovely realization. I would certainly put myself into the category of person who believed that his castigating inner voice was encouraging his performance for a long time. Kind of got myself to at least now realizing it’s probably not helping, certainly not making me better. But then there’s an even more sort of difficult question, which is, okay, it’s not even useful, dot, dot, dot, and it’s still there. Like, right, okay, so it’s no longer performing the function that I thought it was, but you’ve got this, you know, lifetime of habit of that just being the default that you go to. I remember I used to do this thing when, again, CrossFit world. It’s interesting that I use CrossFit a lot of the time when I’m talking about kind of like the induction to personal growth, because both those things happened at the same time. So I kind of anchor a lot of the things that I was doing then to the training modality that I did. Uh, and if I was doing a workout on an assault bike, my heart rate was really, really high. It’s 170 or whatever. And I’ve got the taste of metal in the back of my throat. Uh, I’m aware of 170 is not that high for some people, but it was high for me, uh, working on the assault bike and these sort of during that extreme stress, like acute stress, uh, this sort Of weird texture would appear this sort of landscape or whatever in my mind and it was always critical voices it was always and i have had it a couple of other times when i’m under periods Of extreme stress the less gracious parts of my inner monologue come up uh And yeah, I wonder, it certainly got infinitely better, but there’s still work to be done. Julie Smith Did it help you at the time? To perform? Chris Williamson Yeah, I think so. I mean, look, in my experience, most high performers are not driven by a perfectly balanced desire to enact their logos and actualize themselves. They are looking for validation from the world. They are looking for acceptance in a way that they never got it as a child. They’re looking to prove the chip on their shoulder or the bully’s wrong or whatever it might be. Lot of people are driven by running away from something they fear not running towards something that they want and uh it allows people to create very very impressive lives but in the Only way that everybody else can judge it which is outwardly yeah and you know i know that this is one of your uh pet uh obsessions too which is the price that successful people pay to be The person that you admire. It’s probably been the most interesting question that, that I’ve considered over the last few years. And, and you speak to a lot of people that are very successful and you look at the price that they pay and you go, I didn’t know if this is worth it. Like you have this cathedral of, of accolades and success and reputation and other people admiring you and so on. But look at what you’ve had to do to get there. And again, there are no solutions only trade offs. I’m, I’m currently sort of really, really trying to work about what would this be like if it was more fun? What would this be like if I sacrificed maybe even, you know, 2% or 5% of the gripping and the cloying and the sort of like control in the real world to maybe unlock 50% more enjoyment internally. And I don’t even know if that’s a trade that needs to be made. It might be a sort of a false equivalence or whatever but uh i’ve made it i’ve made a ton of progress so for the the people who’ve got um an endemic uh critical inner voice i think uh certainly There is at least a little bit that can be done to deprogram that how much whether you can get to the stage where it’s you know the the perfect high school coach that you never had uh i’m not Julie Smith Sure but uh yeah i’m moving in the right direction yeah and i think um a lot of people get the impression that if you’re not sort of verbally hammering yourself that the alternative is Some kind of airy fairy um you know you’re lovely as you are and that kind of thing that you just you can’t believe in and just feels it can and there’s a lot in between isn’t there so you know When I talked about the kind of fear chapter and and that sort of inner voice that I needed when I was going through all my health stuff in the summer um I needed a hard hard voice uh we are We are not victims here (Time 1:17:03)
Coping with Overwhelm
- When overwhelmed by emotions, seek connection with trusted individuals.
- Numbing emotions prevents processing; learn healthy coping skills instead. Transcript: Chris Williamson Of this is made significantly harder when you’re overwhelmed and emotionally activated, though, I guess. Which is, you know, to kind of bring it full circle, I suppose. Of the things that we’re talking about in the cold, harsh light of a podcast studio, uh, sound, uh, achievable, uh, rational, um, within reach, but you’re just swimming in emotions. This thing happens. I’m overwhelmed. There’s too much going on. Um, is a what is a way that people can kind of come back to center when we’ve got we’ve got these that we maybe even understand the tactic i should be i should be more supportive with myself There’s that inner voice thing again but you’re just all you can feel is just this activation yeah and that’s why i wrote the book actually this idea that um when you’re in it when you’re Julie Smith In the storm, what you don’t need to hear is someone saying, well, maybe you should have learned to meditate six months ago. You’ll be all right now. Right. What you need then is you need someone to kind of, you know, grab you by the shoulders, look you in the eye and say, OK, I know a way through this. Follow me. Here’s what you need to focus your attention on. And here’s the next step you need to take. And we’re going to take that together. And, you know, it’s really difficult when you have a flood of emotion because of whatever situation you’re in. It’s difficult to work out which way is up, let alone what step you need to take. There are these moments of your brain is sending you lots of information in the of emotion in its attempt to apply meaning to what’s happening and to work out what’s happening and what You need to do next so in that moment you know the best thing for our nervous systems is each other and is someone else and so i always say i think um i say in the introduction actually you Know the inner world is a bit like a sauna there is benefits to being there but only if you don’t stay too long and so in if you’re struggling uh reach out to somebody else another human being That you trust for connection and that will be the most helpful thing to you if you have someone in your life like that uh but not everybody else not everybody has that but also even the People that have it sometimes that person isn’t with them all the time and or in the moments that they most need it and so that’s what this was really about is about kind of talking to someone In the moment and say okay right we’re in this situation it is what it is here’s here’s how we deal with this moment find some calm find some clarity and then work out which way we get through This because the only way is through it. As soon as you numb all that emotion, well, that’s all information for you. So if you numb it, you’re not going to be able to use it. But it’s just, it’s not easy to kind of work out in the moment because life is complex and it throws stuff at us, right? Chris Williamson I realized that the sort of numbing of emotions, the fleeing from them, there are better and worse ways to do it. It’s trite, you know, people to say, well, it’s better to be addicted to the gym than it is to be addicted to fentanyl. And you go like, yeah, obviously. But one of the more sort of, not insidious, but certainly subtle ways that people do that was meditation or breath work, or, you know, what people would typically consider to be very Healthy, very embodied solutions to this. So an emotion arises inside of you. And if you’re good at meditation, you notice it, you release and allow it. Right. Okay. Brilliant. You still don’t know anything about that emotion. You haven’t sat with where that’s come from. And that’s just going to continue coming up. Now, are there times when you need to just let it go? Yes, absolutely. But if this thing’s going to keep on happening, it is permanently putting some sort of band-aid over the top of this, and again, and again, and again, and again. After a while, you need to kind of admit, I just need to sit and investigate where this comes from. Julie Smith Yeah. And some people are able to do that individually and kind of sit with it and listen to it and be with it. And other people need support to do that because it feels dangerous. It only feels comforting if your body feels a safe place to be. So for some people, that’s not the case and it’s terrifying and leads to all sorts of unhealthy strategies um so that’s when it can be really helpful to do that with someone else who can Kind of guide you through listening to that and then when things get too much kind of pulling back a bit and coming in again and you know these things can be done really carefully and piece By piece and by teaching some of the skills to begin with to cope with how distressing that can really be you know some people have a lot um a lot in the past that they’ve been really successful At numbing and covering up and so the minute you ask someone to take a look at that well there is a reason they’ve been numbing that for a long time and so well because it’s really painful And it’s really scary um so you know no therapist worth their salt would ask you to sort of do that without first teaching you the skills to be able to cope with how distressing that could Be dr (Time 1:28:32)