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Former Spy- If You’re Easily Offended, You’re Easily Manipulated! Psychological Trick That Makes People Respect You! This 1 Trick Catches a Lie in Seconds!

The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett

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  • Managing Reactions for Respect
    • Manage yourself and avoid impulsive reactions to maintain respect.
    • If easily offended, practice self-control and choose your battles strategically. Transcript: Evy Poumpouras I’m easily offended, I’m easily manipulated. So if you are that person where you are reactive, reactive, reactive, you’re number one. Shut the f*** up. Because if you’re looking to be respected, you need to manage yourself. (Time 0:00:51)
  • The Importance of Your Environment
    • Surround yourself with positive influences who uplift and support you.
    • Carefully evaluate intimate partners, as their impact is significant due to constant exposure. Transcript: Evy Poumpouras Starts with who’s around you. That’s where it starts. If you have people around you, anybody can break victimhood. Like anybody can. You can. So I want to put that out there. Just because you’re locked in a place doesn’t mean you have to stay in there. You can. But usually if you’re locked in somewhere, it’s because the system you have around you that you also helped create and perpetuate to some degree. We’re not completely innocent. We play a role. The system that is built around you keeps you, think of it this way, it keeps you in jail. So you have to look at your environment and say, what about my environment is keeping me here? Usually it’s a person or people. Hopefully it’s one and you’re not dealing with multiple. Now, can be family. And that’s where, you know, when you deal with children and you deal with certain, you know, crimes and abuse. I, you know, I always feel like the one population of people that truly have, like, I don’t want to say excuse, but it’s really not their fault, are kids. Because they’re just so vulnerable and like, they rely on you for their livelihood. They need somebody to feed them, clothe them, take care of them, or they can’t survive. However, if as you age, right, as you mature, it’s looking at your environment, who’s around me and who is keeping me here. Who? And you know what becomes hard? It becomes hard because you’ll have a, let’s say, I’m going to use this term bad actor in your life. That bad actor can be mom, dad, sibling, brother. It can be anybody. You can love that bad actor, but the choices and the things that that person does impacts you. It makes you more vulnerable. Even if you just look at crime, they’ve done a lot of different studies. And what they found is even, let’s say, if I don’t commit crime, but I’m around other people who commit crime, I am more likely to be shot than any other population of people. I could not be involved in any nefarious activity at all. I could be clean. But simply because of who I associate with, that makes me more vulnerable to becoming a victim. So that’s where you start. Who’s around you? Now, other really important things, whoever you pick for your companion, if you have one, it’s huge. (Time 0:08:53)
  • Observe, Don’t Just Listen
    • Observe people’s actions instead of solely listening to their words or apologies.
    • Learn from early signs of negative behavior to avoid deeper hurt later. Transcript: Evy Poumpouras We like to give people the benefit of the doubt. We listen to the excuses that they give us. And there’s this ancient Greek saying that says, don’t listen to your opponent. Look at them. It will tell you everything. And when I say look at them, look at what people do. I need you to drum out what they’re telling you. I need you to drum out their I am sorry’s because they probably are. They’ve hurt you and they are probably genuinely sorry. That’s not the point. The point is, when do you want to learn your lesson? In the beginning or at the end? (Time 0:14:12)
  • Develop Gut Instinct
    • Make decisions independently without seeking excessive external opinions.
    • Start with small choices to build confidence and trust in your own judgment. Transcript: Evy Poumpouras Stop asking everybody what they think. When I have a really big decision to make, like really big, I don’t tally people. In fact, the bigger it is, the bigger the consequences or the bigger the pain or the trauma, whatever it is, I go in because they’re going to confuse me. That’s what you do. You stop asking people. And if you’re going to ask somebody, let’s say it’s a health decision. You’re going to go to a doctor or you’re going to go to someone who has specific knowledge about a decision you are trying to make. You’re not going to go to mom. You’re not going to go to dad. You’re not going to go to your brother. You’re not going to go to people who don’t have that, who, although they love you, their opinions are going to send you like a ping pong ball. That’s how you become unsteady. And you can start small. You can start small. And when I say start small is start making decisions without running them by anybody. What to eat, where to go, where to vacation. You can start small. It’s just allow yourself to be the decision maker. Allow yourself to be in the driver’s seat. But what we do is we invite people in the car. We’re like, yeah, yeah, you could drive my car. No problem. They get in the driver’s seat. We put them in the driver’s seat. Then we’re in the passenger seat, or we might even get kicked to the back seat. And then we’re all pissed off. Like, why are you driving like that? Why are you going that way? That’s not really where I want to go. Then drive the car and stop inviting everybody in to drive it for you. And then be pissed off when they don’t take it the direction you want to go. If you’re going to be pissed off, always be pissed off at yourself. (Time 0:25:51)
  • Protecting Your Boundaries
    • Share personal information selectively to establish stronger boundaries.
    • Revealing less about your plans or struggles can minimize unsolicited advice and confusion. Transcript: Steven Bartlett Going to end up getting a lot of unsolicited advice though. You know, this is, we all do. We get, when we’re making, trying to make those big life decisions, we’ll have someone who, we didn’t even ask them, but people will be chipping in, telling you what to think of yourself. And there’s an element almost, I guess, of being able to develop stronger boundaries in your life so that you can keep the outside world outside. Okay. Evy Poumpouras So then how about you stop telling everybody your business? Why do they need to know what you’re thinking about doing here or there? Why? When you open your mouth to share things, you’re going to get advice. So this goes back to you. Do I open my mouth or do I stay quiet? Because if I open my mouth and I start talking, people are going to start sharing. And so when people like, oh, they don’t respect my boundaries, you’re the one who offered it. If you want to create boundaries, you start with them. I don’t share. Or like if I’m like, for example, I’m working on a project or a deal. Nobody knows until my deal is done. Why? I don’t know how it’s going to go. I don’t want other people’s opinions. I’ll have the opinions of whoever I’m dealing with specifically in a deal, if it’s a project, right? I’m going to talk to them, but I don’t want other people confusing me. People confuse you. Good intentions, but when you’ve got too many voices in your head, that’s why you can’t trust yourself because you’ve got all these other voices. You can’t hear your own. So I know if I share something with someone, they’re going to share their thoughts. And maybe I don’t want them. I stay, I will tell you, I usually stay quiet until I’m ready to reveal something. Also, I’ll stay quiet until it’s either done, like it’s happened. Because so many times you’ll do something and it falls through and you’re like, you don’t want to have to explain it to other people. It’s like, why do I need to put myself in that situation where I’m always talking? I think talking, talking, talking, talking, although I think communication is good, but sometimes it’s oversharing and overputting our stuff out there. How are you going to have boundaries when you yourself violate those boundaries? Like you just make yourself like open borders, everybody come in. If you’re a bit more methodical with who you share what with and why, I think that that’s okay. (Time 0:29:33)
  • Making Decisions Despite Uncertainty
    • Overcome uncertainty by making a choice and taking action, even if it’s imperfect.
    • View decisions as adaptable, not permanent roadblocks, which builds confidence. Transcript: Evy Poumpouras Just has to make a choice and do it. Pick one and do it. Steven Bartlett There’s no perfect choice, Evie. Evy Poumpouras But there isn’t. There’s no way to know how it’s going to pan out. There’s no way to know. Just choose. Choose something. Choose something. And even if it’s wrong, you know, find peace and like, I chose. It was wrong. But you know what? I’m not stuck here. That’s the other thing. Like, you know, you can change your decisions. Just because you choose something, it doesn’t mean you’re stuck there. We have the ability to get out. You do. You can find ways to get out and say, I made a wrong choice. It’s okay. You also have to be okay with it. (Time 0:35:06)
  • Handling Sexism in the Workplace
    • Evy faced sexism when a male colleague mistook her for an intern.
    • She chose not to react emotionally, highlighting the importance of picking battles wisely. Transcript: Steven Bartlett A woman secret service agent, when you first went into service, I imagine there was a sort of institutional sexism. Just thinking about that era, that time, where people would look at you and think, well, as a woman, there wasn’t as many women in the Secret Service. So maybe she’s someone that I can push down. Maybe she’s someone who I can make the odd comment to. Maybe I could create a power dynamic where I’m above her. Did that ever happen? And if it did happen, how did you deal with it? Evy Poumpouras So that’s like, the truth is that stuff does happen, right? And it could happen. I remember Barbara Pierce Bush went to Tanzania. I’m the assistant detail leader, which means I was like the head person. And then my boss from headquarters came, but he wasn’t there yet. And we were having a briefing. Steven Bartlett And you were protecting the Bush family? Evy Poumpouras I was protecting. I was the assistant detail leader for Barbara Pierce Bush. So George Bush Jr.’s daughter, one of the twins. It’s Jenna and Barbara. I had Barbara. So she went there to do like philanthropic work, aid. And we were going to some really like not safe areas, right? A lot of vulnerabilities, a lot of concerns. So I set up the briefing. I’m the person in charge, and agents are coming from different parts of the country to help supplement. Some agents I’ve never met. So I remember one guy walks in, and he’s like, oh, hey, hi. So this is in the hotel room. We’re having the briefing, and no one’s there yet. It’s just him and I. Hi, you know, how are you? Okay. He’s like, hey, you know, the intern staff room is down the hall. If you want to go, you know, find it, I can show you. So when he saw me, he made an assumption. I was staff intern. You know, I was part of the entourage, but not an actual agent. And so I’m like, actually, no, I’m the assistant detail leader here. You know, thank you for joining. What office are you from? So now, could I be pissed off? Sure. Did he make an assumption based on what he saw? Sure. Those are moments where, like, I don’t care. (Time 0:44:16)
  • Turning Sexism into Opportunity
    • Despite sexism, Evy excelled at an office design task assigned by her boss.
    • This led to a promotion, demonstrating the power of focusing on tasks and proving competence. Transcript: Evy Poumpouras Secret Service field office was in the World Trade Center 7. So when the towers collapsed, we lost our whole office. So immediately the Secret Service New York office, they were trying to find a new home. So they found the office space in Brooklyn. And obviously in a place like that, the office space needs to be designed a specific way for what we’re doing. Again, nondescript, nobody needs to know we’re there, but you’re designing it to look and feel a certain way to get things done. I’m an agent now. I get called into the SACS office, which is the head boss. And he says, I need you to design this office for me. Work with headquarters, get us nice photos, make this look like our new home. You know, we have a lot of briefings here. I’m going to put you in charge of this. Can you do this? Okay. Yes, sir. There’s 250 agents in the office. I get pulled for interior design duty. HGTV. Here we go. So I said, all right, no problem. So I did. I’m like, I’m going to do it. I’m going to own it. And I remember some of the women were like, aren’t you? I’m like, no worries. I was like, I’m going to do the best damn job I can. So I did. Took me months. Made a nice office. I was done with it. Fast forward. That same boss puts out an open bid. New polygraph position. There’s only two polygraph examiners in the New York office, 30 throughout the whole US Secret Service. A spot comes open, which is rare. Everybody puts your name in whoever wants it. Everybody puts their name in. People senior to me put their name in. And then one of the senior polygraph guys was like, why don’t you put your name in? I’m like, dude, no way. No one’s going to confess to me. They’re going to see me. They’re going to high five each other. I’m never putting my name in. He’s like, put your name in. He said, you don’t know. I wait till like the last half hour before they call it a bid closes and I throw my name in. I’m like, it’s not going to happen. Guess what? Week later, I get a phone call. Come to my office. Same boss. Sits me down. He’s like, I had X amount of people put in, maybe 30 or so people. He’s like, I picked you. And he said, do you know why? I said, no, sir. He’s like, I gave you that assignment to design the office and fix it. And at no point did you bitch or complain or say anything to me. (Time 0:47:07)
  • The Power of Silence
    • Learn to be quiet and avoid impulsive reactions, especially when angry.
    • Self-regulation is crucial for avoiding manipulation and making rational decisions. Transcript: Steven Bartlett How do I train the monkey inside my brain over time? Because you said you didn’t, you used to be less regulated, right? You used to make more emotional decisions. And over time, you’ve come to be able to make those very rational, like, prefrontal cortex decisions. Evy Poumpouras And vibes. Steven Bartlett Okay. And vibes. Evy Poumpouras I shut up. I started to shut up. I just started to be quiet. When I’m pissed, I go quiet. I don’t say anything. I think that’s the biggest thing. I learned to be quiet. I just learned to shut my mouth. Not (Time 0:52:39)
  • Addressing Disrespect
    • Address disrespect directly and privately, focusing on specific incidents and facts.
    • Avoid vague accusations and maintain composure to show strength and avoid escalation. Transcript: Evy Poumpouras I would deal with a specific situation, not the whole thing. I would pick a moment where I have tangible facts and I would say, can I speak to you for a moment? Steven Bartlett Okay, so we’re in a group. We’re all on the calls, in my call center. Evy Poumpouras I’m not going to do it in front of other people. Okay, fine. Steven Bartlett So this is what happens. This is not actually what happened in my life. Did you do this? No, no, no, no, no. Fuck me, I didn’t do anything. I just wanted the money. I was trying to just survive. I couldn’t feed myself. I wasn’t going to open my mouth. But we’re in a call center and I’ve disrespected you for a while now. And then I turn to you and I go, and you’ve just come off a call and I go, you know what, you could have done that better. You didn’t close that properly, Evie. And I, you know, next time you do a call and you get stuck like that, just speak to me and I’ll take the call off you. Just tell them that your colleague will handle it. And I carry on with my day. What are you going to do in that moment? Evy Poumpouras I might not do anything. But it also depends because you said I didn’t do anything. I was trying to feed myself. And that plays a role like where are you? Steven Bartlett I think part of it is also is I was very young and I didn’t have the tools to address that situation. The problem is the situation made coming to work a misery. Yeah. And this version of myself, irrespective of my financial situation, would have, and even today, because even today, okay, I have money, I have security, but I’m still playing at a certain Level where there’s disrespect, potential. I actually have a really good example that I could never share as someone that I work with who’s extremely successful. We work on a particular project together, and I found out that this was happening. And they were basically threatened by me because, for a variety of reasons, this is what I was told by an intermediary. And I chose a moment when I heard that they had just disrespected me within a short period of time. And I walked in in front of a group of people. And I said to them, I said, I heard what you did out there in the hallway when I wasn’t there. And in the future, if you want to say something to me I’d really appreciate it you said it to my face instead of behind my back and there’s and it’s crazy what happened it’s crazy what happened This really big tough powerful individual turned into a toddler in front of my eyes oh what no I didn’t say and I left the room and then it never happened again but I think that that’s okay Evy Poumpouras Too but you also came to that place like it’s like I think each person has to choose and if you choose to do it you can do it now the fact that you did in front of people but what you did that was Smart is you were able to speak as upset as you were you were able to speak and articulate yourself clearly yeah and it had just happened and you you were able to say, what just specifically Happened here? That’s the difference. Because sometimes it’s like, I feel like you treat me this way, or I think you did this, or it seems like that. Those are very ambiguous. So if you’re going to confront someone like you did, you did it the smart way because you picked a specific moment. You said specifically out in the hallway, you just did this. You said X, Y, and Z. If you want to say something to me, always feel free to come say it to me. That’s why I also think it worked. (Time 1:02:16)
  • Confronting a Disrespectful Leader
    • Evy addresses a group leader’s disrespectful behavior privately and calmly.
    • This preserved the relationship and the leader apologized, demonstrating respectful confrontation. Transcript: Evy Poumpouras They’re not very powerful. You know, I had, oh gosh, we’re like swapping stories here. I had one scenario where I inherit a case. You know, every, John’s gone. He went to the president’s detail. You are now taking John’s case. Okay. So there were some things that were incomplete in John’s case with regard to evidence. It was admin stuff. The admin paperwork for evidence hadn’t been filled out yet. I got the case. I pushed it to the side. I worked on it. I would update it, but I hadn’t done the admin thing with it. Fast forward, I’m leaving because I just got bumped to a different position. And so the new agent that got it, I’m like, hey, here’s the case. I said, there’s one thing that I didn’t get to do. It’s the admin thing for the evidence. I’m like, I can help you go through it, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, the group leader I had at the time, which was a peer, in front of the whole group, one day he’s like, hey, you didn’t do this admin. You didn’t file the evidence for whatever, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he’s doing this in front of everybody. You know, you need to take care of that and that’s on you. And I don’t care that you inherited the case and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I’m watching this happen. And I assure you, all I wanted to do was like reach over and lunge him by the neck. But I didn’t. I left. I was pissed. I let it ride, my anger ride. And later that day, I went and I found him after I calmed down. And his name was Jeff. I’m like, hey, Jeff, come here. Let me talk to you. And I took him into the stairwell because we had these secure stairwells. I said, listen, earlier on, you brought up this case. You’re 100% right. I didn’t finish the admin paperwork for the evidence. I will take care of it and I will help the new agent do it. I said, however, I was like, if you ever want to address me, because he was very insulting when he did it. He did it in front of the whole group to flex. I said, if you ever want to address me, don’t ever do it like that again. I go, because I’m addressing you and I’m actually giving you more respect than you showed me in there before by pulling you into this stairwell. I said, so if you want to address me, feel free to pull me to the side and speak to me. But what you did out there, there’s no need. We’re peers. And that’s it. You may be the group leader, but there’s no need to talk to me like that. Go have the decency to address me the way and the with the courtesy that i’m giving you because i could easily tore your head off in there and he was a peer he was a peer slash group leader So we were the same but he happened to be a group leader okay which meant he oversaw me i said so next time there’s not going to be a next time it was immediately, I’m sorry, you’re right, I’m sorry, I’m sorry. Now for that scenario, I wanted to have long-term good relationships because this person was in my squad. And so that’s why I handled it like that. (Time 1:05:46)
  • Avoiding Victimhood
    • Stop acting like prey by projecting confidence and setting boundaries.
    • Use body language, voice, and tone to establish a strong presence and deter predators. Transcript: Steven Bartlett That in mind, how do I stop myself becoming prey to a predator? Evy Poumpouras You stop acting like prey. So the one thing you’re not going to be is, it depends who it is. First of all, if it’s personal relationships, you have to set the intention of the relationship from the beginning how you want it to go. So let’s do work. Work is an easy one. I’m not there to be your friend. I can be friendly, but I’m not going to be your friend. I’m not there to be super nice to you or super sweet or super kind. Like I can be warm. I can be respectful. I can be compassionate. I can be those things, but I got to bring the right version of me to a work environment because then I just get… Because then I set the tone of like, well, is that being my friend? Or is that being my boss? What am I dealing with here? Always keep that level of professionalism. Always. And I make a point to do it because then it just becomes really awkward if people are your friends. Can you balance a relationship like that? You just got to be really, really, really, really good. But don’t come in and literally make yourself a doormat or overextend to the point. Because the more you overextend, even a good person is going to be like, oh, that’s just how she is. That’s how he is. They get used to being like that. And people like being catered to. They like feeling like they’re above. And so now you create this role dynamic of I’m subservient and you’re here. So you want to make sure that no matter how excited you are to work with someone or be with someone, that you don’t create this disproportionate thing. Like the seesaw. You want to keep the seesaw level. It’ll go up and down, but you want to make sure that you, because you will do it. Everybody assesses everybody. Everybody sizes people up. They do it intuitively. People meet you, they size you up. Oh, he seems like this. She seems like that. She seems like she’s going to be this way. Project what you want them to feel. I’m here. I’m warm. I’m open. I’m happy to be here again. Thank you for having me. Let’s talk. But at the same time, you can also think about how you sit, how you carry yourself, your voice, your tone. All these things play alone together. I know people talk about body language. It does play a role in the fact that, look, something as simple as when you go to meetings, are you in the meeting and you’re like this? You’re small. Maybe you got your phone out. Right? What am I doing? I’m making myself small. My hands aren’t on the table because I don’t think I’m worth putting my hands on the table. Right? I want to literally make myself disappear. I’m not going to ask any questions. I’m going to maybe sit like this with my thing here, right? So this is telling you a story about me. It is. So it’s a really subtle way to be like, why don’t I sit with purpose? I’m going to sit like this. I’m going to have my arms out. I’m going to have my shoulders back. Something as simple as just posture means something. There’s a study actually done. New York City, they put up cameras years ago, and they started recording people walking in New York City. Then they took the footage, and they played it to convicted felons in prison. And they said to them, who would you pick as prey? They all picked the same people to prey on. All the same people, just by walk. There were three types of walk they found out. One walk was, I’m walking, I’m sloppy, I’m not paying attention, I’m just like in my own space. I have really no deliberate purpose in the way I’m moving my body. Target. Easy prey. Other easy prey. My walk is small. I’m more timid. I’m kind of like not comfortable. I’m like paying attention. Easy prey. Those two bar none were picked. You know who they didn’t pick? The walk wasn’t too sloppy big. It wasn’t too small. It was right in the middle. And it’s deliberate. I’m in control of my body. I’m looking around. I’m present. I own my space. That person, I want nothing to do with. Those group of people were not picked to be targets. So we exude vibes, energy, all that stuff. But even this, this tool that we don’t pay attention to, our body, think about how you use it to portray yourself when you’re out there. Am I commanding myself or am I just not paying attention at all? (Time 1:13:51)
  • The Power of Hand Gestures
    • Hand gestures (illustrators) enhance communication, adding emphasis and engagement.
    • Deviations in hand gestures can indicate deception, signaling deeper investigation. Transcript: Steven Bartlett Your hands, you use your hands a lot as well. Evy Poumpouras Yeah, it’s probably because I’m Greek. Steven Bartlett No, but it’s interesting because it’s part of the delivery. When you’re saying something a second ago, you were going and you were doing slow hand movements that are almost illustrating the point you’re making. And it is persuasive because it almost is adding another layer of emphasis to what you’re saying. Whereas if your hands were just tucked under the table, I actually might think you were less confident or sure in what you’re saying. But because you’re like, again, it goes to what you’re saying. You’re taking more space up. Evy Poumpouras So don’t hide your hands. Just for anybody listening, 101, if you’re sitting in a meeting, don’t hide your hands. Don’t sit on them. Don’t hide them. Just one, it doesn’t look good. It doesn’t send a good message. It sounds like you’re kind of insecure. You don’t want to be there. Hands out. I’m here. I’m present. And yes, these are called illustrators. When you do this with your hands, it’s called illustrators. Now, there’s a couple of things with illustrators. One, it can make it more interesting to watch someone speaking when you use an illustrator. It adds more emphasis. You said it. It adds another layer aside from me just sitting still, right? It engages people and pulls in the viewer a bit more. It’s more engaging. That’s one. The other thing with illustrators is it can be a cultural thing. I’m Greek. I’m from New York, so I’ve got massive problem with these things. I actually work very hard to put them away. The other thing that’s actually interesting, which you didn’t ask, but I will volunteer this information. It’s another way I would use to tell if somebody is being truthful or not. Again, everybody is different. Everybody’s body language is different. But when you’re speaking to someone and they use illustrators when they normally talk, typically when we see illustrators, it’s truthful, right? They’re telling you a story. Yesterday, yes, you know, I went out with my friends. We went and we had burgers. And then afterward, we went to the store. So when you see somebody doing that, it is very likely they are reliving the event. And you can see the body reliving it with them. So when you see that positive sign, typically, that they’re being truthful. Now, if you’re talking to someone who uses illustrators and all of a sudden they do this, they put their hands away during a certain part of the story. So tell me who you went out and had dinner with Evie. Oh, um, you know, it was just some people from the office. In that moment, what you’re going to do is say, okay, Evie’s used illustrators this whole time. I shifted the conversation. I asked her something else. Now her hand’s been away. Why? That’s it. Why? That’s lie detection 101. Now, it doesn’t mean I am lying because everybody lies different. Everybody’s behavior is different. We’re not going to put people in a box because that’s just dumb. However, what you’re noticing is a deviation. Whenever you tell stories, she uses her hands. And then for whatever reason, I asked a question. That question prompted something in Evie and Evie put her hands away. She did a shift. And now you, having caught that, you’re going to ask me more questions. You’re not going to move on to the next topic. You’re going to find a way to say, I need to get Evie to talk more about who she went out with last night because clearly something just happened. Steven Bartlett And is that because they’re going from their natural state of flow and whatever to more calculated and they’re like overthinking? Evy Poumpouras Part of with lying, right, if we’re just using lying, or if you ask me something for whatever reason, let’s say I don’t want to tell you who I had dinner with last night, right? When I feel that, I’m overwhelmed. I’m inundating. Lying is hard. Lying is hard. You have to think of what you’re saying. How am I going to say it? Is it going to be believable? I want to move the topic on. I don’t want to get caught because who wants to be a liar? Although everybody lies to some degree, right? So it’s overwhelming. It’s actually a heavy cognitive load. That’s why one of the things, it doesn’t mean it’s the only thing, but one of the things we were taught to pay attention to body language to people, like if you read them well, you’ll know What to look for and look for the deviations because everybody is uniquely different. But you would look at body language to see what are they doing with their body because lying is hard and usually you want to go still. And because you’re putting so much of a cognitive load here, all this stuff goes away. So that free flowing Evie telling you the story about, I went out, I had dinner, I had a burger, it was great, goes away the moment you’re like, well, who’d you go have dinner with, Evie? Now if in that moment I don’t want to tell you, I’m having that, oh, shit factor. What am I going to say? How am I going to say it? I’m overloaded. And so I stop moving. The body does less in that moment, in this specific scenario. (Time 1:24:20)
  • Small Changes, Big Impact
    • Focus on small, manageable changes to improve body language and project confidence.
    • Start with simple adjustments like posture and voice tone, rather than faking it. Transcript: Evy Poumpouras Don’t believe in fake it till you make it. And I actually don’t like that term. You know why? There’s nothing fake about me or you. I don’t need to be a fake version of myself. But what I can be is a more aware version of myself. And something as simple as just doing one thing, Stephen, just that one thing, it’s like, you know what? I’m just not going to make myself small. When I walk, I’m going to take up space. That’s it. That’s all I’m going to do. I’m not there to solve like a whole puzzle about why I am the way I am and why psychologically I walk this way. But I’m going to do one small thing that’s going to make one small difference. And it’s going to lessen slightly whether somebody decides to pray on me or not. That’s it. And so you know what happens? Habit. You’re going to break the habit of walking like this and being invisible to just creating a very simple habit of I just walk with my shoulders back now. Shoulders back, shoulders back. When you go down the street. In fact, when I started doing the news and pay attention to my posture and I would sit and do the news, I’m like, shoulders back. Like in my head, I’m like, shoulders back, shoulders back, shoulders back. Because there were times where I lost myself or even during commercial break, my husband would send me a text. He’s like, Jesus Christ. He’s like, sit up straight. You look terrible. He’s like, no one’s going to believe. He’s like, stop slouching. And I’m like, oh, you’re right. It’s just what am I projecting? So there are simple things you can do. So it’s not one big thing we do over time. And I follow this too. It’s like over life, it’s like one small thing for me to change a habit of something that I do. Just start small and then conquer that thing and then move to the next thing and then move to the next thing. But at the same time, be kind to yourself. (Time 1:30:09)
  • Neutrality Mindset
    • Cultivate a neutrality mindset, avoiding extreme highs and lows in response to external events.
    • This fosters emotional stability and reduces dependence on external validation. Transcript: Evy Poumpouras Actually, the person who brought it more to my attention, you’ve had her on, Gabrielle Lyon, Dr. Gabrielle Lyon. She’s married to a SEAL. Now, Gabrielle, who’s actually my doctor. Steven Bartlett A Navy SEAL. Evy Poumpouras She’s married to a Navy SEAL, Dr. Lyon. When her book was coming out, she was asking me all these questions. She’s like, you know, my book’s coming out. She was asking me questions, smart women, because I had a book come out. So she’s like, let me ask Evie, who’s had a book come out, her opinion on a couple of things. And at one point, she said to me, you know, were you nervous about whether it would perform well or not or how it would do. And I said, no. And she’s like, no? She’s like, you weren’t worried it would make this list or that list? I was like, no, I didn’t think about it. And she laughed. I said, why are you laughing? She’s like, because you’re all the same. You, my husband, all these Navy SEALs. She’s like, you’re all in the middle. And what she was talking about is we have a neutrality mindset, which means we don’t celebrate high highs, but we also don’t fall down on low lows. We’re always in the middle. So going back to my book, if my book did well, it would do well because it was a good book and people liked it. That was it. And if it didn’t do well, it didn’t resonate. I wasn’t tied to the fact that, oh, my God, it’s doing great. Selling. I didn’t celebrate that. Now you would look at it like, why wouldn’t you celebrate a high? I can, but what I start to do is I cultivate a habit where I’m tied to the external world. And when the external world is giving me this, this, that I want, I’m happy. But the flip side is that when the external world is going to give me things I don’t want, I’m also going to be tethered to that and I’m going to sink down. But if I’m in the middle, I don’t have high highs, I don’t have low lows, I’m always somewhere here. Neutrality mindset, which means emotionally, I’m always stable, more than likely, 99 or 90% of the time, whatever. That’s neutrality mindset. I don’t have high highs. I don’t have low lows. Nothing destabilizes me to that point. Steven Bartlett How do we get there? How did you get there? Evy Poumpouras It’s just, it’s, well, you don’t get, it sounds terrible, but one, you don’t get overly excited when something happens outside. I’m not saying not to celebrate, but I’m also not going to be tethered like, I can only be happy now because this thing outside of me happened. Because now I’m training myself and my mind to be, when external things happen, then I can be truly, truly happy. Or when external things happen, I’m going to be truly, truly sad. But when these external things happen, they don’t pull me all the way up and they don’t pull me all the way down. I won’t have those highs and lows that other people will have. I can stay here. So I make sure that when something great is happening, very small example, I won’t go out and tell everybody. I allow it to happen. Right? And then if people congratulate me or give me good news, I say thank you. You know? But I don’t like that to be the source of my happiness. Because it comes from here. Because let’s say I did my book and it bombed. So what? So now, according to that theory, I should what? I should plummet and be like, oh my God, I’m a failure. I wrote a book. It was the only chance I had. It tanked it. Who am I? I’m this. So now my value is tied to what? My emotional state is tied to what? How well or not well my book did. That’s the problem. So the more stressful situations you can put in, the more places of uncertainty, the more you can manage these highs and lows, the more you’re going to live here. And you know what else? Going back to who is in your inner circle. I don’t like to be around people who lose their shit when things break bad. I don’t. As steady as I am, they will destabilize me. They just will. So I do my very best to try to keep a circle of people around me as much as possible of people that I know are steady. So going back to partners, I happen to have a partner, a husband who’s like that. Something can blow up and he’d be like, all right, let’s go. He’s not going to destabilize. So that is infectious on me. Now, can we have people around us that are severely impacted? My mom, love you, mom, sorry. But my mom, who’s like very, at times can be emotionally impacted by the outside world, yes. So I have to work very hard to compensate for that, to not let that impact me where I go high, high and low lows. It’s just awareness, but it’s just, it’s the external world. (Time 1:32:29)
  • Managing Your Nervous System
    • Take ownership of your emotional responses and challenge catastrophizing thoughts.
    • Interrupt negative thought patterns by talking to yourself and regaining control. Transcript: Steven Bartlett I completely agree. I mean, like, obviously running businesses and stuff is prime example where you’re just getting fucking great news or bad news all the time and even try and move emotionally with whatever The news is today in your inbox would just be i’d be like keeled over on the floor dead however there’s so many people that are listening that would say evie i agree but my nervous system Just seems to run the shop like I just seem to just get dragged around by good things and bad things. And I catastrophize when something bad goes wrong. And I just, I know what you’re saying is true, Evie, but like, how do I get there? What’s like, what’s step one in becoming that person that isn’t swung up and down on the rollercoaster of life? Evy Poumpouras Do you know, like, I wish people gave themselves more credit. Like they think sometimes people are like, I’m not, it’s like, you are, like, you have so much more authority and regulation of yourself than you realize. And I think sometimes to the narrative out there is like, oh, this happened to you, it’s not your fault. Or that happened to you, it’s not your fault. Or this person did this to you, it’s not your fault. And so what happens is, the narrative that we hear right now is this external world is fluctuating you. It’s not your fault. And so if it’s not my fault, how can I stabilize it? So that’s one thing. So I’m not saying it’s your fault, but I’m saying you have the ability to self-regulate. Please stop listening to everybody else that’s telling you it’s not your fault. It’s out of your hands. It’s this, it’s that. No, everything always starts and ends with you. If you can just keep that, it starts and ends with me. One, you’re right there. Two, in those moments when you start to catastrophize or you start to feel yourself go that way, stop. Literally just say out loud to yourself, stop it. Stop it. Talk to yourself. Like interrupt that thought. Just interrupt it. Don’t let it finish. Even if you’re having a high high with something great happening, I’m not telling you not to be happy. But also don’t over sensationalize it. Don’t go tell everybody. Because then you’re pulling yourself up. You’re being tethered by that. Right? I’m trying to, what I’m saying is don’t be this up, down yo-yo. Cut it. Just be like, oh, no. Literally, just tell yourself. There’s moments where I talk to myself all the time. I’m my voice. And so if there’s moments where I think my voice is drowning out, I will say, hey, no, this is what we’re going to do now. Talk yourself through it. It’s such a powerful thing to really just stop the thoughts, just stop them and take ownership and say, stop thinking that. No. There’s this person who used to tell me that one of the things that she used to say to herself was cancel, cancel. It was a negative thought or something bad. She would say to herself, cancel, cancel. I’m canceling that thought out loud. So find something that interrupts it. That’s where you just start. Like we’re not trying to do the whole feat. We’re just trying to break these habitual patterns. And also sometimes, quite honestly, this nonsense stuff that we’re fed, that really keeps us like just, it just keeps us from being able to take ownership over ourselves. (Time 1:37:19)
  • The Trap of Specialness
    • The belief in being “special” isolates individuals and amplifies their struggles.
    • Recognizing shared human experiences fosters connection and resilience. Transcript: Evy Poumpouras But it’s when you can’t come to terms with it and you think like, life’s just bad for me. Life’s picking on me. My life is hard. My life is this. My life is that. You know, you’re not that special. I just did my second TED Talk and I talked about the six inhibitors that hold us back, hold people back. And it was based off of all the mentors I did, like hundreds, like which happened after I wrote my book when people writing in. And one of the biggest things that holds people back is the idea that I’m special. I’m special in that my problems are special. My pain is special. I’m so unique. Nobody knows what I’m going through. So when everything around me, if I’m that special, why I can’t figure my stuff out? Because I’m not like everybody else. And when you do that, when you have that narrative, like that you think of yourself in that way, you are telling yourself I’m alone in the world because I’m special. Nobody can know what I’m going through or struggling with or dealing with. And it’s actually kind of when I would talk with people and like, you’d give them solutions and they’re like, no, no, no, but that won’t work for me because of this or this and that. It was always like, and I would tell them, I’m like, I say this with all the love of my heart. You’re not that special. If you recognize that, then you’re going to realize that you’re not alone in this world going through all this stuff. This stuff isn’t just happening to you, and there’s solace. You know, after 9-11, you know, I survived 9-11. I was one of the first responders there. I don’t even like to use the word survive. I was there. I lived through it. People ask me, you know, how did you deal with the aftermath? Because, you know, you’re watching thousands of people die. You almost die yourself. Steven Bartlett Sorry, just to pause there because that was an important point for me. Why don’t you like to use the word survive? Evy Poumpouras I like live through. Why? Survive to me has a negative connotation. It’s not as powerful. I don’t like it. To me, like, I live through. Survive is this thing happened and I, this is how it feels. Because I’m trying to articulate it. It feels like I survived through it. It’s like, no, I thrive through that. I live through that. I thrive through it. Survive makes me think I barely made it, which technically I kind of did, but I don’t care. But one of the things that helped me get through it, when people like, you know, trauma, like you’re watching, truly, you’re watching, I watched thousands, like thousands of people Die, people jumping, and like, you can’t do anything. Like you tried, we tried, I tried. So, and then after that, we had search, cleanup, and rescue efforts. And I will tell you, one of the things that got me through it to the point where I barely dealt with any type of real aftermath, like PTSD or anything like that. I’m not saying I didn’t get anything, but what helped me through is I wasn’t that special. I wasn’t alone in it. When you know you’re not alone in the world, like you can get through anything. But when you tell yourself that you are that unique and that what is happening to you is just happening to you, then all your pain is special. All your problems are special. Your trauma is special. And then nobody can help you because it’s just you going through it. How alone is that? And it’s that mental shift of when you can hear other people’s stories or see what other people are going through, and then that helps pull you through your stuff. (Time 1:46:23)
  • The Addictive Nature of Victimhood
    • People cling to victimhood because it serves a purpose, even if subconsciously.
    • This identity can hinder personal growth and create self-destructive patterns. Transcript: Steven Bartlett Reminds me of what you were saying earlier about identity, and I was thinking of something I read recently that said, words to the effect of people would go to great lengths to destroy Things, including themselves, before they dare edit their own identity. There’s a real element of truth in that. You’re talking about identity and instrumental mindsets. And I wonder if there’s a real risk to developing an identity, because you’ve got an identity now. Secret Service agent, NYPD, strong woman, doesn’t take shit, says it how it is? Evy Poumpouras Well, you know, so in the context of identity, the identity mindset, if we go back, it’s that I’m special mindset. I’m in an emotional state, I’m special. That’s like identity mindset. That’s how you know when you’re talking to someone, if they’re instrumental or identity. If they’re instrumental, they’re task oriented, they’re moving, they’re trying to solve problems. If they’re identity, they’re stuck, they’re emotional, I can’t believe this, I can’t believe this is happening to me. So with that, when you can figure out what mindset somebody is in, then you can talk to them, but you talk to them in the mindset that they’re in. If somebody is instrumental, I’m going to know this is a person that’s just like, tell me what to do. Just get to the point. I just wanted this, this, and this, and this. There’s no feelings. There’s no stuff involved. There’s no emotions. Somebody’s identity, right? They are, it’s about them. It’s how it’s affecting them. Typically, again, when we’re very self-focused, higher depression, higher anxiety, we’re overanalyzing things. We’re in an emotional state. So when someone’s there, it’s good for you to know because you know in that moment, they’re not listening to what I’m saying. They are stuck in their space. Now, if I’m looking to progress the conversation, let’s say they work for me, I’m going to sit and listen to them, let them offload to a point to get them where I need them to be or to get them To get to this instrumental space. Like an agency like the US Secret Service, it was very instrumental. Nobody wants to hear you complaining, get it done, fix this, do this, because they didn’t really have the luxury of being like that. Because if you are like that, people die. It’s just like you got to move on. But if your identity and where it’s like you’re really wanting other people to understand you, I’m not saying that we don’t visit identity land once in a while. It’s not a great place to live either. Because you’re so self-focused that you can’t function. It’s me, me, me, me, me. But if you can master this, which you can easily do when you talk to people, you’ll know that person’s instrumental. They just need X, Y, and Z, that person’s identity. Your friend is identity. The thing with them is their identity almost all the time. That’s when it becomes a problem. Steven Bartlett And I’ve got great empathy and sympathy because defense can become someone’s personality, especially if at a younger age, defense was their survival. Evy Poumpouras Do you know what’s interesting? And the Harvard Business Review did a study on this. They wrote about this. Do you know that the more you go through, the less empathy you have? So you would think, let’s say you’ve been through your hardships, you would think that because you’ve been through that stuff, you would have more empathy. But as you rise through the ranks, you actually have less empathy because you’ve been through it, you’ve overcome it, and you kind of look at people like, can you please get it together? (Time 1:56:53)
  • The Power of Authenticity
    • Focus on being genuinely helpful and providing value to others, rather than seeking validation.
    • Authenticity fosters stronger connections and long-term success. Transcript: Steven Bartlett Something really interesting. I mean, there’s so many interesting things you said there. I mean, the two kind of highlight points for me were this idea of play the long game of just trying to serve other people and you’ll achieve your objectives versus trying to do the short-term Game of maybe being nicey and caring too much about how you appear, which might help you maybe in the moment, but it’s almost a form of long-term sabotage. And I guess this brings me to the question, which is like, should we try and make people like us? Evy Poumpouras No, because it’s fake. Because it’s manipulation. That’s why I’m, who am I doing it for? If I’m trying to get you to like me, is that who you want? Or do you want the person who’s going to come on this podcast and just have a genuine conversation and do her best to give you some valuable information to help people? Who do you want? You want me to be like, I hope Steven likes me. I hope he thinks I’m smart. I hope Steven thinks I’m a good guest. I hope Steven invites me back. Is that what you want? And who did I just make all that about? Do I give a shit about you and your podcast? No. Clearly, I just care about Evie. That’s the problem. Because I’m manipulating you to fulfill myself. That’s where it goes wrong. If somebody likes you, it’ll be genuine. We don’t manufacture it. It’s disingenuous. People feel And trying to be charming and charismatic. First of all, major red flag for narcissistic personality disorder, number one. Really? Sure. A lot of them are. In fact, when you see that, always ask yourself, what is motivating this person? I always think, what is motivating this person? So as I sit across from you, what’s motivating you is you want to do a good podcast. You have millions of people who listen. You want to give them good content. Period. The end. Steven Bartlett You seem to be a big fan of being authentic, right? As a person. Evy Poumpouras I just want to be genuine and I don’t want to be a bullshit artist. Nobody wants to be bullshitted. I’ve experienced it. Nobody likes it. And It’s not being authentic. It’s just being genuine because also you can’t just walk into a room and like, I’m going to be me and whoever likes it likes it. Good luck with that. You want to adapt to the environment and to people you’re with and what mindset that they have and talking to them in a way that they understand, not you. So that’s a bit more adaptability and connecting with people. When I talk to businesses, a lot of times one of the big things is, and they’re learning this, a lot of businesses are moving away from being transactional, making the sale, and just trying To get these short-term goals. And what they’re shifting toward, which is smart, is long-term relationships with people. Because if you have a long-term relationship with a client and they genuinely like you, not because you charm them or you trick them, but because they genuinely like you, they’re genuinely Going to want to stay with you and they’re not going to want to leave and go do business somewhere else. That’s why being genuine works. And you can be genuine and disagree with someone too. That holds better. People vibe other people quite a bit. And they feel it. And if they feel your nonsense and they feel like you’re tricking them or using tactics, even when I, sometimes I give keynotes and I’ll tell them, I’m like, I’m not here to give you tips, Tricks, or techniques. I’m not here for that. I was like, can I ask you a question? Do you like it when people use techniques on you? No. Do you like it when people use tricks on you? No. So why would you do that? And why would you think that’s going to take you places? It’ll take you somewhere short-term. Long-term, people are going to drop you. (Time 2:08:43)
  • Embracing Rejection
    • Embrace rejection as an opportunity to build resilience and self-confidence.
    • Seek out challenging situations to practice handling setbacks and develop thicker skin. Transcript: Steven Bartlett I was watching your BBC Maestro recording, which, by the way, is fantastic. And I highly recommend anybody who hasn’t seen it to go and check it out. It’s basically like it takes everything you’re saying. It kind of turns it into a bit of a course. And there was a line you said in it which I thought was quite interesting, which is, I wish you as much rejection as possible, because that will increase your self-confidence. You’re also saying that in the BBC Maestro piece that confidence is the number one thing you get asked about. I wish you as much rejection as possible. That kind of goes back to what we were saying earlier about how going through difficult shit is the best way to build a thicker skin. But who on earth wants to go through rejection? Who on earth, what kind of psychopath is going to self-elect to go through rejection? Evy Poumpouras A person who wants to build their resilience. Because when you deal with it, so the BBC Maestro course is the art of influence, how to influence others. So going back to the ethos of that course was, and I say it at the beginning, I’m not here to give you tips, tricks, or techniques, because that’s not going to influence people. We’re not trying to trick people or manipulate people to get things out of them because that’s not going to help anybody in the long term. It won’t help you in the long term. Influence is having the ability to have people to want to be around us, to have people to want to work with us, to have people who want to talk to us. That’s what influence is, genuine influence and how we push that out there. Also, in the class where I talk about rejection because we split it up into certain parts, and one of the parts was your ability to understand yourself, kind of like you can’t influence Other people if you don’t understand yourself. And so part of that is how resilient are you? How steady are you? And you don’t build those things unless you deal with rejection, unless you deal with people pushing back. Maybe be a psychopath and embrace the things that everybody else is too terrified to embrace. Everyone’s so scared of being rejected. So why don’t you be the deviant? Don’t be like everybody else and be like, I’m ready for it. I’m good with it. Because the more you deal with it, the better you are at dealing with it. And you’re going to get it anyway. (Time 2:12:41)
  • Negotiation Tactics
    • When negotiating, present concrete facts and figures instead of subjective feelings.
    • Adapt your communication style to the other person’s behavior, being direct when necessary. Transcript: Steven Bartlett If I’m negotiating a pay raise? Evy Poumpouras If you’re negotiating a pay raise, first of all, you’re going to come in with all your homework done. You’re not going to come in and go, I think I deserve a raise. I feel like I deserve a raise. You know, I’ve been here for a long time. You’re going to come in with a list of facts and you’re going to say, I closed this deal and made this much money. I closed this account with this person. I made this much money. I did this in a year. I generated this amount of money. I’m going to list the facts so I can articulate to you why you should give me that raise. That’s on you. I think, I feel, I believe. And then your boss can turn around and be like, well, I think, I feel, I believe that you shouldn’t get one. It’s so ambiguous. When you come in with facts, it’s a hard thing to fight. Now, when you’re going into that meeting, if I’m the one asking for the raise, I’m going to go in as lion. I’m in charge. I’m setting the agenda because I’m the one asking for a raise. So I’m going to come in with my facts, methodical. I’m going to be good lion. Sir, hi, Stephen. I just wanted to talk to you. I’m looking to increase my compensation here. Well, now you’re just bad lying. You want to let the guy, even if it, here’s the thing, let’s assume it’s no. You’re like, in your head, you’re like, there’s no way. You’re going to let the person talk. You’re going to let the person feel heard, even if it’s like a hard no, because what’s most important is to let them feel like you actually listen. Steven Bartlett But what if I say no to you, then what do you do? Who do you become? Do you become mouse? I just said absolutely not. Evy Poumpouras So I would say, okay, I’d say, could you explain to me why? Steven Bartlett I don’t want to give you a pay raise. I think, you know, when I think about who I’d rather have that money, me or you, I think me. Evy Poumpouras Well, so you’ve got actually T-Rex right there. Steven Bartlett How do you deal with it? Evy Poumpouras So if it’s T-Rex, if it’s a person who’s trying to kind of push back and fight you, you have to deal with T-Rex. One of the things that they teach you with the animal wheels, the only time you swap is mouse and lion because two people can’t be in charge. So that’s the only time. But when you have T-Rex, one of the things they teach you is you have to deal with T-Rex. Steven Bartlett So you have to be the good T-Rex, which is frank or direct. Evy Poumpouras Just be the good T-Rex. Okay, so you said that you prefer the money go to you and not to me. Steven Bartlett Okay, so bad T-Rex to remind people is attacking, sarcastic, et cetera. Evy Poumpouras Yeah, bad T-Rex would be like, well, you’re an idiot. You’re ridiculous. Well, you’re a jerk. Steven Bartlett And good T-Rex is frank, forthright, and direct. Evy Poumpouras Yeah, so you’re saying you’re not going to give me a raise because you want to keep all the money for yourself. Correct. And not for me. Okay, well, I don’t know if I can continue to stay here if that’s going to be the case, right? You can, I’ve been here for X amount of years. I’ve generated X amount of dollars. And so that’s going to be an issue for me and my ability to stay and work here. I’m being direct, frank, and forthright. Address people. You can address people and it doesn’t have to be ugly. Now, again, you can’t control their behavior, but you can control yours. So you just want to make sure that a person who’s behaving like that, that you don’t get pulled into that behavior. You just want to stay on the good wheel of it. It’s all self-regulation. But you also don’t want to be afraid to deal with people. That’s why dealing with rejection and tough personalities and hard people, it’s good practice. Every time somebody like that comes along, I want you to think, I’m practicing, I’m practicing, I’m practicing. Don’t be afraid of it. And then it also allows you to work on your T-Rex because if you have a hard time with it, it allows you to work that muscle. (Time 2:32:33)