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The Public Speaking Expert- This Speaking Mistake Makes People Ignore You! These Small Mistakes Make You Unlikeable!

The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett

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  • The Piano Sales Pitch
    • Vinh Giang learned about the power of voice from his vocal teacher, Miss Stanley.
    • She demonstrated how different melodies evoke different emotions, inspiring him to explore his vocal instrument. Transcript: Vinh Giang And I’ll never forget this experience. There’s a dingy music corner in South Australia and I would go there for lessons. And at the first time I met her, I walked into the room. She’s an old lady. And she says nothing to me except the words, sit down, young man. So I sit. It feels super awkward. It feels super weird. And then she plays one key nonstop on the piano for two minutes. Literally, I was like, oh, shit, this is like something out of a horror movie. And then she turns around. She goes, how do you feel? I said, nothing weird, awkward, what? And then she goes, good, turns around, plays this beautiful song called Mariage d’amour. Goes over for two minutes. And then she turns around. She goes, how do you feel? And I said, ah, weirded out from before still. But I feel, wow, that song had love. There was lust. There was romance. There was excitement. And she goes, good. Honey, most people go through life speaking like this. I’m going to teach you how to speak like this. And that’s, to me at the time, I remember thinking to myself, that is the greatest sales pitch I’ve ever heard in my life. Because I’m now going to sign up for 12 classes with you because you’ve just helped me realise something. I’ve been struggling with my entire life. I haven’t been thinking about my voice as an instrument. I thought it was a tool. What do you do with a hammer? You use a hammer. What do you do with a screwdriver? You use a screwdriver. What do you do with a piano? You play with it. What do you do with the violin? You play with it. And she started to teach me that I have this instrument that depending on how I play it, it changes (Time 0:02:39)
  • Magic and Showmanship
    • Vinh Giang initially focused on technical skills in magic, neglecting showmanship.
    • He realized that combining technical proficiency with strong communication skills is crucial for success. Transcript: Vinh Giang It was magic, right? So I was really good at magic. They hoped it was medicine, accounting, you know, the Asian prophecy. So when I found that diamond being magic, I thought that all I had to do was get really good technically as a magician, because that’s what I was taught at university, being an accountant. Oh, if you become really technically proficient as an accountant, you’ll become an amazing accountant. You’ll be successful. You get the BMW, you get everything, get partner. So I thought, okay, magic, same thing, get really good technically. Spent thousands of hours in my bedroom by myself in front of a mirror practicing magic. Got nowhere because I was missing an ingredient. Magicians call it showmanship. Fancy word for communication skills, right? One of, we were both inspired by the same person, I believe, one of the people we were inspired by is Derren Brown. Impeccable showmanship. Impeccable technical skills. So when you pair technical skills with great communication skills, that’s when you thrive, I believe. Because let’s say, for example, you’re technically brilliant, you’re a 10 out of 10 technically, but you’re 3 out of 10 with your communication skills. Do you think people perceive you to be a 10 out of 10 or a 3 out of 10? And you know this hearing so many different pitches. Some of the greatest ideas have flown under your radar without you noticing because the founder didn’t do it justice. Steven Bartlett It’s an interesting idea to think that we might rise or fall to the level, not of our technical ability, but our communication skills as it relates to how the world perceives us. And it’s both. (Time 0:05:16)
  • Overcoming Invisibility
    • Vinh Giang was bullied as a child for his accent and struggled with feeling invisible.
    • Learning communication skills helped him overcome these challenges and negotiate a better reality. Transcript: Vinh Giang English is my third language. The first language I learned is a Chinese dialect. Not that impressive. My wife speaks five, but thank you. The first language I learned was a Chinese dialect called Di Chiu. It’s a bit of Di Chiu for you. O si Di Chiu Nang. Second language I then had to learn fluently is Vietnamese. Vinh Lăng Yik Nam. Duy la Vinh San Au Ngu. So I had to learn all these different languages growing up. These are my first two core languages that if I wasn’t proficient in it, grammar would be pissed off, mum would be pissed off. So we had to study it. And then I went to school and had to learn English. So I went to school. I was completely invisible. I couldn’t communicate with any other kid. They couldn’t communicate with me. So what do kids do? Oh, it’s too hard. I’ll just ignore you then. They bully you. Oh, yes. I didn’t even know it was bullying because I couldn’t understand them. I could kind of read what they seemed mean, but I had no idea what they were saying. So I spent so much of my childhood, especially in those single-digit years around five, six and seven, it is super sad, but I just spent a lot of time in the toilet because I didn’t want To deal with the shame of being seen by myself. So I just hid. I just found a corner somewhere and no one… And then gradually I started to learn English. But even when I learned English, I sounded funny because I had an accent. So then they called me FOB, F-O fresh off the boat. And they just kept calling me, oh, there’s the FOB, there’s the FOB. Oh, he’s so FOB-y. So then even though I learned the English language now, I’m scared to speak it because I don’t want to sound like a fob. And there were all these challenges. So I know what it’s like to feel invisible. I know what it’s like to be ignored. That was a long time ago. And I guess (Time 0:07:45)
  • Rapid Communication Change
    • You can radically change your communication skills in 3-6 months with desire and motivation.
    • Adopt a new identity and embrace new communication behaviors. Transcript: Vinh Giang Skills? It depends on your level of desire and motivation. If you really want it. I’d say three to six months. Steven Bartlett You think you can change your communication skills in a radical way in three to six months? Vinh Giang I’ve seen it. I’ve seen students do it. It’s when instead of just thinking about I’m trying to learn a habit, it’s what James Clear says. You adopt a new identity where they adopt that new identity. Because one of the things I do is I share that story about my schooling experience at the beginning of my in-person classes. And I say, I want you all to imagine now you’re at a new school. No one here in this room with us right now has any preconceived idea of who you are. Break the mould. Break it. And then you see grown adults do things they wouldn’t normally do. Break out of the mould. Play with their voice. Be a little silly. Reconnect with their inner child. And then in that moment, they fall so deeply in love with that version of them because of the reactions they’ve been able to get from all these strangers around them that they commit to It. It’s when you experience that change in the moment, usually leads to a fairly profound desire after that. Oh, I want to become this now. But then they make a big mistake. And the biggest mistake they make is they’ll go home to their partner, and who has no context of the experience they’ve been through. And they’ve just went, oh, I’ve been quiet with my voice my entire life. And they’ll go home, new me, new year, new me, honey. And then their partner goes, oh, why are you doing that with your voice? Oh, you learned that from Vin? That’s gross. Why are you doing that? It’s so fake. It’s so inauthentic. And then they revert back to who they have always been their entire life. What (Time 0:09:30)
  • Vocal Image
    • Develop your vocal image, which shapes how others perceive you when you speak.
    • Turn assumptions about you into beliefs by improving how you communicate. Transcript: Steven Bartlett Almost like a billion search results on Google for people trying to figure out or trying to provide answers to how to communicate successfully. So let’s get into it. So you use this term vocal image. Yeah. Vinh Giang What does vocal image mean? It came about when I realized I spend, and I think most of us spend a lot of time on our visual image, right? How we look, our body language, the way we dress. But very rarely do people spend time on their vocal image. Now, I’ll make it make sense. When people see you and you reveal your visual image, they make assumptions about you pretty quickly. So they form assumptions. Oh, this person seems friendly. Maybe they’re confident because they’ve got good posture. Maybe they’re smiling. They’re friendly. And then all of a sudden, when you open your mouth and you speak, they now turn these assumptions into beliefs. So what may be assumptions before now they go, oh, you are friendly. You are confident. Right. Or they might think, oh, no, bit of a wanker. Right. And you’ve had these experiences before. I’ve had them before where you assume you see someone, you go, oh, that person’s really good. Go and meet them. You’re, ah, not really nice. That’s weird. So it’s another layer that we don’t think about, though, because we, again, think we’re stuck with our voice. We think we’re stuck with the way we communicate. We think there’s no way for me to ever change this. (Time 0:20:30)
  • The Power of Melody
    • Melody in your voice evokes emotions and influences how people perceive your message.
    • A more melodic voice makes you more memorable and impactful. Transcript: Steven Bartlett So let’s talk about how one can improve their vocal image so that they’re effective across context. You mentioned melody, volume, hand gestures. If we start with melody, what the hell is melody? Vinh Giang The different notes you can hit with your voice? Okay, so is that variety? Yeah, variety. Yeah, pitch variety, pitch and melody. Okay. Well, because there’s a melody that lives underneath your voice. All right, let’s do an experiment. I’m going to play you a piano song, and I want you to listen to this, and then you’re at home right now. I want you to listen to the track and see what words come to mind. So we’ll just play it. We’ll play the song. Okay, yeah. Sadness. Right. And then if listeners at home could have a voice here too, that’s maybe say they’ll say sombre, nostalgic. Yeah. Right? All these words would come up. And again, if we sat with this for all, we’d get plenty of words. Let’s try another one. Let’s change the mood. Let’s shift to something like this. Inspirational, motivational. Good. See, all of a sudden now, and I’m thinking running towards something. Yeah. Right. And again, there’s a part of me that thinks, oh, cheesy commercial, right? There’s that part of it too. So you can hear all these different things. Let’s try one more. This one, we’ll shift gears again. What about this one? Steven Bartlett Like a horror movie. It’s scary. About to die. Yes. Something bad’s about to happen. Omnius. Little three-year stood on the landing of the staircase at night time. Vinh Giang Yes, with long black hair. Yeah. Yes, correct. So that, again, all of a sudden paints all these different vivid pictures in your head. The reason I did that experiment is there were no words in any of those tracks. Yet think about all of the words that rushed to your mind as you were experiencing the melody, the different notes. What people fail to realise is that you have a melody in your voice. This is why when some people walk into our lives, it could drain the energy from our lives. And when they walk in, you feel the impact of them walking in, right, in the negative way or a positive way. Some walk in and you go, oh, I feel good, I feel great. Steven Bartlett What is that? It’s the melody in which they come in with. Can you have a pretty limited range, a limited melody, but still hit people with scary and sad and inspiring? (Time 0:21:41)
  • Rate of Speech
    • Vary your rate of speech to create auditory highlights and emphasize key points.
    • Slow down for important information and speed up for less crucial details. Transcript: Vinh Giang Now, next one. I’m just going to get you to read this one as you would, and then I’ll tell you what it is. Just so you don’t get ahead of yourself. Okay, cool. And please tell me you know this movie. Steven Bartlett Fire out, Stephen. I don’t know who you are. I don’t know what you want. If you are looking for ransom, I can tell you that I don’t have money. But what I do have are a very particular set of skills. Skills I have acquired over a very long career. Skills that make me a nightmare for people like you. If you let my daughter go now, that’ll be the end of it. I will not look for you. I will not pursue you. But if you don’t, I will look for you. I will find you and I will kill you. Vinh Giang Yes, very dark movies. I love these movies. Steven Bartlett What movie is this? That is the movie called where his daughter gets kidnapped. What’s it called? Yes. He’s like, oh, do do he? Vinh Giang Yes. That’s what the hell is his name. Lion King. I’m joking. No, what is it? Right, from Taken. But here’s the thing. So the next foundation is rate of speech. Okay. So if you were reading that, and I was kind of just giving you some coaching, again, as you were reading that, think of rate of speech of having a scale from zero to 10. Yeah. All right. So one being painfully slow and 10 being as quickly as you possibly can. Right. So you were around playing around a five. Very comfortable. That’s your default rate of speech. Most of us, when we’re nervous, we just have a default rate of speech. We fall victim to a default rate of speech. When you think about rate of speech, there’s a way to use it. And the way you use rate of speech is if you really want to highlight a point creating an auditory highlight, slow down. That creates an auditory highlight. It’s like a highlighter with your words. And if you want to be able to show charisma, energy, you speed up. And if it’s not as important, you can speed up and that’s fine. This simple rule gives you vocal variety with your rate of speech. That (Time 0:28:21)
  • Volume Control
    • Volume is crucial for conveying your message effectively; it carries other vocal foundations.
    • Use volume strategically to highlight points, going quiet for emphasis or louder for energy. Transcript: Steven Bartlett If you know what you’re worth then go out and get what you are worth but you have to be willing to take the hits and not pointing fingers saying you went where you want to be because of him Or her or anybody cowards do that and that ain’t you you’re better than that now the thing is this next one is volume oh shit. Vinh Giang Yeah. Volume, so critical. Steven Bartlett Okay. Vinh Giang For many different reasons. Volume is the lifeblood of your voice. Volume carries all the other foundations you’re about to learn. Volume carries the melody. Volume carries the rate of speech. It carries everything. Right. And again, I think of it as having a scale from one to 10. And a lot of the times, like what you just did, people are around a three, a four, and they stay around there. When you use volume, there’s two ways to auditorily highlight something with volume. Volume is fascinating because with the way to speech, you slow down. But with volume, to highlight something, you could go very quiet. So if all of a sudden I wanted to say something scary, I could lower my volume and say it. But then all of a sudden notice what happens if I just stay here now. What started as a great verbal highlight now just kind of seems, doesn’t seem effective anymore. Because if you make something default, it becomes non-functional. Steven Bartlett And what signals I’m not a confident person? What side of the scale? The lower scale. Okay. On volume. Okay. Vinh Giang Because that’s one of the default shy behaviours that a lot of people exhibit. Steven Bartlett And what about leaders? Where do they land on the scale? Vinh Giang Depends if they’re self-aware. Sometimes if they’re not self-aware, they can be on the higher end. And that’s, you know, you just have someone come across as a little arrogant. Sometimes it’s just too much volume because too much volume without the other foundations. Now you come across arrogant. So again, if I give this back to you and again, just for fun, like I want you to go loud. I want people to hear outside of the studio what we’re doing. So just, just have a go and just, and give me, and give me a whisper too. At some point, give me a whisper too. Steven Bartlett Now, if you know what you’re worth, to take the hits and not pointing fingers saying you ain’t where you want to be because of him or her or anybody. Vinh Giang Cowards do that. And that ain’t you. You’re better than that. Oh, it’s amazing. What you just did made me feel. Why did I feel? What is a voice? A voice is a series of vibrations. So you just sent vibrations my way that made me feel. (Time 0:33:46)
  • Tonality and Facial Expressions
    • Inject emotion into your voice (tonality) by using facial expressions.
    • Your face acts as a remote control for adding depth and feeling to your words. Transcript: Steven Bartlett Did rate of speech, we did volume, we did the melody. Picture melody, yeah. And then there’s two left, right? There’s two left, yeah. Right. So this one, read it as you would, parts of it. And it’s not because I’m lonely, and it’s not because it’s New Year’s Eve. I came here tonight because when you realise you want to spend the rest of your life with somebody, you want the rest of your life to start as soon as possible. What we’re moving into now is the emotion that exists within your voice, tonality. Vinh Giang This is the emotion that exists, right? So the way to add more emotion into your voice is to move your face. Because as I eloquently put it at times, your face is the remote control that allows you to add emotion into your voice. So let’s play, right? So now I’ll give you different faces to make. I’ll tell you different faces to make, and you make those different faces and allow those emotions to come through your voice. Okay. So if it’s happy, then I want you to sound really happy. If it’s sad, I want you to sound really sad. So we’ll start with, and try your best to play with this. I want you to make disgust, like just, ugh, disgust, and let that come through. And give me a more volume. Give me disgust in three, two. And it’s not because you’re lonely. Yeah. And it’s not because it’s New Year’s Eve. Steven Bartlett Surprised. Really surprised. I came here tonight because when you realise you want to spend the rest of your life. Angry. Give me angry. You want the rest of your life to start as soon as possible. Happy. Best day of your life, Stephen. You want the rest of your life to start as soon as possible. That’s so beautiful. Vinh Giang You know this already. In our brains, there’s mirror neurons, right? And when I see you go through these different facial expressions, I feel what you feel. Even though I know this is a situation we’ve created here for us to experiment and it’s a safe environment. But every time you went through any of those emotions, I felt it. (Time 0:36:36)
  • The Power of the Pause
    • Strategic pauses intensify emotions and give your audience time to process information.
    • Pauses in speech are as crucial as silences in music. Transcript: Vinh Giang Course. If you didn’t, I’d be quite deeply offended. I’ll get you to read this and we’ll play with the last one. OK. Steven Bartlett My name is Maximus Decimus Meridius. Correct. Commander of the armies of the north, general of the Felix legions, loyal servant to the true emperor, Marcus Aurelius, father to a murderous son, husband to a murdered wife, and I will Have my vengeance in the life or the next. Perfect. Vinh Giang Now we’re going to read it again, except the final foundation here with the voice is pause. Whatever emotion comes before the pause, once you pause, it intensifies that emotion. So if you’ve got the feeling of anger and you pause, oh, that is a pause of anger. But if all of a sudden I’m sad and then I pause. You put on the sadness. It’s a pause of sadness. And think about how important the pause is in music. And I love the world of music. I love listening to orchestral music. And when you think about it, what happens right after a crescendo? It’s a pause. Silence. The most important note that they played during that piece. Yet we barely use it. And what else does the pause do? When you pause, you give me time to process what you’re saying. Yet we are so afraid of the pause. Steven Bartlett My name is Maximus Decimus Meridius, commander of the armies of the north, general of the Felix legions, loyal servant to the true emperor, Marcus Aurelius, father to the murdered Son, husband to a murdered wife. We are so afraid or the next. Oh, beautiful. Vinh Giang When you paused, you gave me time to process the weight of what you’re saying. The first time you read it, you rushed through it, just like that nervous employee in front of their leaders who just rushed through it. You may have just shared the most brilliant plan for a marketing campaign, but because you rushed through it, I didn’t feel the weight of how profound the strategy is. Steven Bartlett There’s something when you pause, you almost, you tell the person, don’t you act almost inexplicably that they should really give a fuck about the thing you just said yeah like it really Mattered it’s important you know because you’re like giving it space to breathe and you see what all these foundations do what do they give you ultimately like what does it ultimately Lead to clarity (Time 0:48:08)
  • Record and Review
    • Increase self-awareness by recording and reviewing your communication.
    • Analyze your voice, body language, and spoken words for non-functional behaviors and clutter. Transcript: Steven Bartlett One increase their self-awareness as it relates to their communication skills? Is there a practice I can do to understand if I’m good, bad or ugly at this? Vinh Giang If you are problem unaware of communication and right now you just go, oh, this is something I need to work on, then this is the three-step process you have to commit to. And just by doing this, it’s going to dramatically change the way you talk. It’s going to dramatically change the way you show up. I call it record and review. And I learned this as a magician. And it’s so practical when it comes to magic and communication skills. First step, record a video of yourself speaking for five minutes, a full five minutes. And people always immediately say, oh, what do I say though? Google or chat GPT, great conversational starters. And then use those for yourself and just talk, but it has to be impromptu because I’m trying to tease out core behaviours. I don’t want you to give me a pitch that you’ve delivered 20 times already. I want you to just in the moment speak. I’m trying to tease out some non-functional behaviours. So once you’ve recorded that video of yourself for five minutes, leave it for a day. Video or just audio? Video. You want video, you want to be standing while you’re doing this, okay? Once you’ve got that video recorded, leave it for a day. Because when you watch it straight away, I’m fat, I’m ugly, I don’t like myself, I hate the way I sound. You leave it for a day, you’re thinner, you’re better looking, you love yourself more. Time and space, it’s amazing. So leave it for a day. Then when you watch it back, you review it in three different ways. The first time, so you record on your phone, you turn the sound all the way up, press play, turn your phone over, just listen. Here you’re doing an auditory review and just listen to your voice. And now because you’ve listened to this podcast, you also have five vocal foundations you can think about. So now auditorily, think about how’s my rate of speech? How’s my volume? Oh, my default rate is around a three. Oh, I speak really slow and I stick to that. Oh, my default volume. Oh my goodness, it’s one. Oh wow, there’s no tonality. There’s no emotion in my voice. There’s no pitch for right. Oh, I am not pausing. You’ll be able to take so many notes and you’ll be able to hear things you’ve never been able to hear before because most people avoid filming themselves. Because I hate the way I look and I hate the way I sound, right? So to me, once you do that, you’ll have a page of notes and a whole new level of awareness on your auditory communication skills. So the next step is now you turn your phone back around, you turn the sound and put it on mute, you press play and you just look at yourself. And then as you’re watching yourself, because most people don’t do this unless they’re creators, you don’t do this. That’s why creators are such great communicators is because they do this. That’s why you’re a great listener and a podcaster, because you watch yourself back. So now as you just watch yourself back without the auditory feedback, all of a sudden now you’ll see things you don’t normally see. Oh, wow, I’m swiveling a lot on my chair. Oh, wow, I don’t use my hand gestures. Oh, wow, I put my hands behind my back. Oh, this is my big tick. I keep touching my glasses. I can’t help it. Oh, I need to work on that. But you keep touching your glasses, right? I keep touching my face. I keep touching my mouth. I keep fiddling with things. See a whole bunch of non-functional behaviours that you’ve never seen before because you’ve avoided it and also because you have this idea in your head that you’re stuck. You’re not. It’s just a series of behaviours. And then afterwards, the final form of review, don’t listen to it and don’t watch it. Get it transcribed. Because now you’ll see the way you communicate from a different perspective. And you go, oh my goodness, I ramble. I talked about the same thing over you because you see it from a different perspective. Sometimes you don’t hear that. It’s easier to see it. And then you see it and I can see you reacting. Right. But that’s what people do is they go, oh, not only do I ramble, because when you get it transcribed, leave in all of the non-words and the filler words. Non-words being the sounds we make to fill the silence, filler words being the words we use to fill the silence. And so, like, do you know what I mean? This transcription is immediately going to reveal to you all of your auditory clutter. The things that you say, again, non-words and filler words, auditory clutter. That’s the, again, the and so, like, do you know what I mean? Highlight it with a red highlighter because it might not just be those. One of my big ones was okay. I taught online during COVID. As a result of that, because I didn’t get the in-person feedback from my students, I would always say okay at the end of my sentences because I wasn’t getting any feedback. So I say, that’s the vocal foundations. Okay, all right, now that’s body language. Okay, okay, okay. And I didn’t even notice I was doing it. But that process revealed to me immediately, oh, wow, I (Time 0:53:00)
  • Effective Video Calls
    • On video calls, use an external microphone, good lighting, and proper camera placement.
    • Be energetic and let them see your full torso for better visual presence. Transcript: Steven Bartlett But it’s to do with their ability to communicate. The world has really changed, especially in the last couple of years post-pandemic, and much of our communication now takes place on video calls, Zoom, Google Hangouts, this kind Of thing. How do the rules that you’ve said and you’ve talked about today apply or not apply to when I’m doing my Zoom meetings? It’s even more important online. Vinh Giang Because the moment you sit in front of a camera and you’re not a creator, what happens? The moment it’s unnatural, what happens to you? Because it’s weird sitting in front of a webcam. What happens to you, do you think? You lose yourself a little bit. Yes. Everything drops. All of your vocal foundations disappear. So what do I need to be thinking about to be effective? Steven Bartlett I want to be the most effective person on my Zoom course. Because I do worry sometimes. I do worry because I have big investment meetings and stuff with startups or founders that I’m in the process of trying to do a deal with. And I think, God, if we do this on Zoom, it might not be so good. I might come across worse. I feel like I’ll come across better in person. So I often move the meeting to in person. And then sometimes it’s not always convenient, right? It’s never convenient because you’ve got to drive somewhere and fly somewhere. So I’d rather be effective on Zoom. Nothing will replace this. It’s why I flew here from Australia. Nothing will replace this. Vinh Giang If we did this virtually, it’s not the same. But when you have to do it virtually, you have to give more of yourself. If you want them to feel valued, you have to adopt a mindset of generosity. I’ll explain. We often think of generosity as the first form of generosity, which is money, right? Easiest form of generosity to grasp. And then you think about it for a bit more. You go, oh, it’s time. Oh, okay, cool. And then you think about it for more. Often people don’t think about the third form of generosity, which is energy. That’s what the third form is. Because right now with you, I’m being generous with my energy. I’m choosing to do this, Stephen. I’m not just, I’m choosing to do it because I want to connect with you. Because I want to be able to share the knowledge and I want to be able to do this. Whereas there’s a part of, again, there’s a part of my brain that’s like, oh man, you’re jet lagged, you’re tired, just back off a little bit. Who cares, all good. Whereas I’m now being generous with it. And online, you have to be so conscious of that. You have to be so much more generous with your energy. Because naturally, when you’re sitting in front of a camera, you feel weird. And then all of a sudden, it’s like my wife. When she watches me run my classes, she goes, I can’t be in the same room. Because I feel like you’re being too much. And I am. Because when I’m teaching my classes on like 400, 500 people, I bring a much bigger version of myself to that class. I’m bringing a much bigger version than this. And then my poor wife sitting there, she goes, oh, he’s overdoing it, he’s overdoing it. But to every single student on that class with me virtually, oh, man, this is so engaging. It’s so beautiful to see how much zest you have for what you do. And afterwards, I’m exhausted. But it’s a choice I’m willing to make to be masterful with what I do in that moment. Now make sure your camera placement is well placed. A lot of people, when they appear on Zoom, all you see is their head. Now that makes you less visually dynamic. Whereas this is why you need the external mic. Push the laptop back, external camera, wider lens. Let them see your whole torso. Yeah, I love this. This is so important. And I learned this from Vanessa Van Edwards where you brought her on. Oh, yeah. Such a powerful concept where it’s the idea of proxemics, where there’s the study of distances. Most people, when they appear on Zoom, they appear in the intimate space. And the intimate space is when your head is right next to your partner at night where you’re doing pillow talk. And that’s how you appear on Zoom. And when you appear that close, you feel self-conscious. Everybody else goes, oh, that’s a bit. So if you all of a sudden now learn to appear in the personal and social space, which means they can see your full torso, that people feel more comfortable, but now you also have access To your hand gestures. Light yourself well. Steven Bartlett Okay. Vinh Giang And something very simple. If you’re doing Zoom meetings all the time and it’s critical for you in your work, then learn three-point lighting. Right? Three-point lighting. You’ve got that going on right here. Right? And if you don’t know what it is, if you just searched it, you’d find it. Steven Bartlett Which is essentially… Three-point lighting. Vinh Giang You’ve got a key light, you’ve got a fill light, and you’ve got a hair light behind you, right? Steven Bartlett Okay, so there’s a light behind you. Yes. There’s one on the side here. Yes. And there’s one on the front. Is that what you mean? Vinh Giang Yes. Three key lights, essentially. Okay, fine. Again, they technically call. My videographers teach me all this where they say, oh, you need a key light, then you’re going to have a backlight. At the moment I did that on my Zoom course, I just looked different to every single other person who appeared on that Zoom course. Interesting. I’m just clearer. I’m crisper. Right. And this is, again, if you want to take it to the next level. I want to take it to the next level. All right, then great. Then get a better quality camera too. Don’t rely on the laptop camera. Steven Bartlett Okay. Vinh Giang Right. A lot of people do this who are creators. You just get a nicer webcam, minimum 1080p. So you look sharper, you look clearer, and you’re well lit. OK. Now you look better. Done. Perfect. Get an external mic. OK. Because if you spend all of your time working on all of these wonderful vocal foundations, and if you’ve got a shitty microphone, and then you talk, oh, you’ve lost there again. Steven Bartlett And get fucking good Wi-Fi while (Time 1:14:28)
  • Conversation Starters
    • To start conversations, play “High/Low/Buffalo”: share a high point, a low point, and something interesting about yourself.
    • This creates multiple conversational threads. Transcript: Steven Bartlett The other thing that people struggle with a lot, and we talked about it a tiny little bit earlier on, is starting conversations and small talk. Yeah. It’s difficult. I think it’s becoming increasingly more difficult as we become more sort of digitalised in our lives. Vinh Giang It requires so much courage. I feel that starting a meaningful conversation requires a lot of courage. Steven Bartlett This sounds like a crazy fucking thing to say on a podcast in 2025. Vinh Giang How do we start a conversation with another human being? Is there like a… I’ve got a favourite technique that I use. And it requires courage. So you have been warned. It requires courage. And it’s a game, simple game, called Hilo Buffalo. Hilo Buffalo. I love this game. Oh, you’re not aware of this. Again, because you haven’t played in the world of improv. Hilo Buffalo. High is something that’s going great for you. Low, something that’s not so great for you. Buffalo, something interesting about you. Now, there’s a reason why this game is so great. It’s great because if I play Halo Buffalo and you play Halo Buffalo, and we’ll play it in a second, are you game to play? Yeah. Okay. Then what we’re doing is we’re creating something called conversational threads. Let’s play first. So do you want to go first or do you want me to go first? You go first. Okay, sure. Hi, I’m doing the Diary of a CEO podcast. This is pretty awesome. So I love that about this. This is amazing for me. This is a big high for me. Low, I’m really struggling with what is enough in this chapter of my life and how much I should pursue building my business, how much I should grow it. I’m really struggling with that enough component. And something interesting about me is I have three alpacas and I live in an acreage. Steven Bartlett Gosh, that’s crazy. Vinh Giang Don’t feed our packers. Whatever you like. I’ve got a dog called Pablo. Yeah, there you go. You’re overthinking it. Don’t overthink it. Steven Bartlett Give it a go. Hi, I’m really enjoying this conversation and I’m learning a lot, which is amazing. Lo, I haven’t been working out in the gym as much as I want and I’m concerned that my balance is off because I’m recording a lot and things are out of whack and I’m trying to work in the evenings And that’s a struggle trying to squeeze my relationships in there as well. Random interesting thing. I’m training for a marathon that I haven’t signed up to yet. That’s incredible. I didn’t know you were going to do that. That’s incredible. Vinh Giang That’s not as good as alpacas. And definitely wasn’t as good as alpacas. However, that’s great. When you have the courage to do this do this with someone now i’ve given you three conversational threads that you can pull on do you say it to them that we’re going to do high low buffalo I play this game with people i meet that i want to connect with okay this is not if i’m on the bus and i’m talking to someone okay no because that’s generally small talk and if you don’t want Steven Bartlett To connect with the person doesn’t make sense but what if i’m in an elevator i’m in a social setting i’m at a. Vinh Giang Well, the game I just gave you is different. The game I gave you is a game that you play with a colleague you’ve been working with for the last four years, but you barely go beyond high. Okay. Right? Because, and we’ll stick to that, and then I can share with you another one. But to me, what’s powerful about that game we just played is we all have people, the reason people hate their work so much is because they don’t feel connected. And it’s because they’re not having conversations at work. It because they don’t feel a sense of connection with their team members. So to me, when you are courageous enough to play this game, say you’ve been working with Susan for 12 months and you always see each other in the lunchroom, but you never, you just sit down With Susan and go, Susan, I know this is a bit crazy. Listen to a guy named Vin on Dario, CEO. He said, if you want to connect with someone and you care about the connection, play a game called Hilo Buffalo. Are you game? Play. And just do what we just did. Because all of a sudden now, I’ve given you three threads, right? Excited to be here. Also struggling with enough. And then I also shared with you, I’ve got three alpacas, I live in an acreage. There are three things that you could choose from, what you’re interested in asking me about. You just gave me three things. I’m also very conscious about health and I haven’t been that great with it too. So all of a sudden we can, I’ve got three threads to choose from. What’s the opposite of that? Did you watch the Mr. Beast? Oh, I haven’t. Who’s Mr. Beast? Oh, that’s cool. All right, I’ll see you in the meeting at two. I’ll catch you then. No worries. Because you’ve taken your shot in the dark and you’ve given one thread and it just didn’t hit. Whereas I’m, I’m giving myself three chances here. I’m giving three opportunities for a conversation to spark, but in actuality, there are six threads here. Steven Bartlett Because there’s three from me, there’s three from you. I’m going to roll around the office when I get back to London and I’m going to ask people for some Hilo Buffalo. Vinh Giang And just, because all of a sudden, that requires vulnerability. That requires something you’re excited about. And it’s also something interesting. You didn’t even know, I didn’t know you were going for a marathon, man. That’s awesome. Right? You should sign off for it. (Time 1:33:27)
  • Preventing Interruptions
    • Improve vocal and physical presence to prevent interruptions.
    • Increase volume, use hand gestures within the power sphere, and stand while speaking. Transcript: Steven Bartlett Difficult conversation? So say someone has been, always interrupts me at work. Do you know why it happens though? Vinh Giang Why? Because of low levels of physical and low levels of vocal presence. If, you know, if I talk to you like this and I’m going to share a really good idea with you and it’s so easy to interrupt this person. So you have to fix that at a foundational level. You have to increase your vocal presence. You have to increase your physical presence because it’s infinitely harder to interrupt this version of VIN as opposed to the version of VIN you just experienced before. That’s the first thing I would say. At a foundational level, that’s what you want to fix. And again, that’s to do with volume. That’s to do with hand gestures, power sphere, all the things we’ve spoken about. And by levelling that up, it’s much harder to interrupt this person. Steven Bartlett Yeah, I can interrupt this guy. It’s harder. Vinh Giang Yeah. Whereas all of a sudden, people aren’t aware of that and they think, oh, people interrupt me just because people are rude. No, no, it’s because you haven’t indicated that you’re taking the floor right now. (Time 1:42:20)
  • Parental Renunciation
    • Vinh Giang’s parents, after achieving material success, became Buddhist monks, finding peace by renouncing material possessions.
    • They found happiness and fulfillment through a simpler life focused on spiritual growth. Transcript: Vinh Giang Incredibly beautiful. Your father as well was and is an incredible person. Steven Bartlett You were telling me a little bit about him before, but I also did some research on the life he lived and what he went through and his brothers and his family, and it was incredible. And he is now a monk. And my mum. Tell me about that conversation. Vinh Giang Yeah. Mum and dad, before I moved to the US, they, yeah, we sat around a kitchen table like this and they said, hey, we’ve got a big bombshell to drop on you and we want to become monks. We’ve been playing the money game. We’ve been playing the status game and we’re suffering. We’re suffering and we’ve been following Buddhism for years and we find so much peace in this pathway. Steven Bartlett He said we’re suffering. Yeah. Vinh Giang How? We would buy a new car because one of my uncles bought a new car. We would buy a new house and a two-storey house because one of my uncles bought a two-storey house. And I watched my dad play this, and I saw it, and it got to the point where we got a jet ski and we didn’t have a boat license so what are we doing with the jet ski and it became this weird moment Where I was like oh dad like can we take it out oh no we can’t because none of us have a boat license so dad had his own suffering in his life he went from nothing in Australia to building incredible Businesses with his brothers right they started South Australia of South Australia’s first grocery stores and then they went to buy pharmacies and restaurants and takeaway stores. They did commercial property, residential property. So they built all this up. And they’d fled from? They fled from war. From war in Vietnam. So they started from nothing in Australia. And I watched them do that, right? The most memorable thing that led me to this path of entrepreneurship that I am in now is I saw them. We would have three bedrooms in the house. One was for sleeping. The other two were sewing rooms. And then after you finish sewing all day, you go outside and you peel onions and you get paid 50 cents per bag of 20 kilo bag of onion that you peel. You get 50 cents for the whole bag peeled. And then after that, every part of our garden was dug up to grow vegetables that we would sell for 10 cents a bunch at the local grocery store. And then after that as well, they would also cook these delicious things in Vietnamese called mantec, and then we would cook them and sell them for 50 cents each inside the house, right? And that’s what we all do. So I watched them do that, to then buying a farm, to then realising that, oh, the farmer’s sold to an agent, the agent sells it to grocery stores. Oh, we should save up money. Saved up for years, bought a grocery store. So then we became the farm, we became the grocery store. And I just watched him do all of these different things. And there were years where dad was really happy. But then there were years that started to come where he found, I saw him really empty. And you’re just going through the motions of doing things because my uncle did it, so I guess I’ll do it too. And that’s what he meant by suffering, is that they were playing that money game and they were playing that status game. And they felt there was an exhaustion to it. When we had that conversation, there was such exhaustion there. And I remember feeling it, which what made me think, because it goes up in my head, I was thinking, oh, you just want to get a divorce. But when I felt the exhaustion of it I went oh are you exhausted of each other or I went wow wow there’s there’s a game you’re playing you’re so exhausted and you found freedom because you’re So excited for this other thing and this other thing was becoming a monk becoming a monk renouncing they renounced everything renounced everything yeah and then I became the person That then had to give some of the things that they needed. I think one of the greatest gifts that my parents have given me is not giving me an inheritance. It’s one of the greatest things. At the time, I wanted to negotiate that so bad. I was like, 20%, can we just split it a little bit? But one of the greatest things I did, because that didn’t kill my drive. Was it a lot of stuff they had? Yeah, they had money. Millions? Yeah. And then I and then I almost had it, then there’s a part where, and again, to be completely truthful with the journey, then I was like, oh, but then now I need to help you. And I had to because they had a vision and I wanted to help them. So I bought them a block of land to help them build a meditation centre. And my dad was like, no, no, no, I just want the, like, just land. And then he had a shed there and then he said, just whoever comes to help us put the shed together, that will be the meditation centre. It doesn’t need to be anything more than that. And then he had all these people in the Vietnamese community come along and which you paid around the back. No, I didn’t. I didn’t pay them. I didn’t pay them. I didn’t pay them. I had to pay some diggers to come in to actually, you know, move the land in certain places, but I was happy to do that. And then I saw them build this beautiful little spot where it was filled with gardens, with vegetables and self-sufficient now. And people in the Vietnamese culture come to them because a lot of them are suffering from PTSD, but they don’t acknowledge it. Where is this place? In South Australia. We’ve got a little block of land and, yeah, it’s called Nang Mai. And then they just have people go there. Vietnamese, because my dad doesn’t speak English that well. So he’s got a bunch of people from the Vietnamese culture coming to them who are suffering from the war. And some of them have had children pass away. And then I see my dad bring someone who’s, the craziest situation of the world, saw him have someone lose a child, one of the greatest pains I think a human could ever know, and then walk In, in tears. Dad, speak to them, hold their hand, went for a walk, and then just took their hands. They started gardening. And I watched this ridiculous thing happen in front of me, where then he took them gardening. They planted a few things. They picked some fruit. They went to the kitchen. They cooked. And then he just said to them at the end of the day, you did something amazing today. You planted some fruit for those who you may not be around for, but when this tree grows, you planted some beautiful fruit for someone to eat. You’ve done something really good today. And I watched him almost heal someone without saying much at all. And I said, Dad, how did you do that? He goes, because I just took them out of their head just for a moment into their hands to give them a moment of quiet. People know how to get out of their own troubles. Sometimes they just need a place to need some shade. Is he happy? I’ve never seen him happier. And I was the biggest skeptic because I thought, surely there’s going to be a crack. And I was playing that sceptic. I feel kind of bad playing that sceptic because for a period of my life I was like, is this real? Like is it real or is this a phase? And as far as I can see, it’s real. Good on him. And he’s so free though. It’s because he wakes up every morning. He has this incredible, he has no attachments. He’s detached from everything. What (Time 2:05:05)
  • Letting Go of Identity
    • Don’t be attached to your current identity; it limits your potential.
    • Let go of your present self to embrace future growth and possibilities. Transcript: Steven Bartlett Got a previous version of you here. What was that kid like at that age? Starving for attention. Vinh Giang Starving for attention. And desperate. Felt really lonely. Because I moved schools so many times. Most people go to university with a group of strong friends. I went to five schools. Steven Bartlett What did he need to hear? If you could teleport back and you could have a whisper in his ear and just give him a couple of sentences at that moment in time, what would you say to him? Vinh Giang I’d tell him not to be so attached to who you currently are. Stopping so attached to this identity that you’ve created. Not only are other people going to try to keep you inside this, you’re the one that’s keeping you inside this. You keep blaming other people saying that, oh, everyone’s stopping me from becoming the person that I am. No, no, no, no. Listen, Vin, it’s you. You’re the one stopping you from becoming the future version of you. And the simple word would just be… Just let go. Let go of that present version of you. I hung on to it. Why do we hang on to… It? As much as my reality sucked in that moment, I felt safe. Familiar. Familiar. And it felt like home. Because what is home? Home is just a familiar. And the coolest thing about travelling, Stephen, is that as I travelled more, before home, I would tell you, oh, home to me is Salisbury Downs. And then as I started to travel around my own city, oh, no, home is Adelaide. Then I started to go camping. Oh, home is South Australia. As I travelled, oh, home is Australia. Then I started to live in America. Oh, home is America. And then home gradually becomes the world. There’s this beautiful concept where, again, I just kind of, home to me is just a familiar. And at that point, my home was Salisbury Downs. My home with this such limited version of Vin. And I was too afraid to venture out of Salisbury. (Time 2:15:00)
  • Neutral Ears
    • Practice new communication behaviors with “neutral ears” - people with no preconceived notions of how you sound.
    • This desensitizes you to judgment and allows you to experiment. Transcript: Steven Bartlett Vin, what’s the most important thing that we haven’t spoken about, that we should have spoken about today as it relates to the work that you do? And if you had to guess what the person at home, that question that they have that I didn’t ask, that they’re screaming at the screen, what it might be that we didn’t cover, what do you think It would be? One big thing is, so I’ve taught you all these different things you can do with your voice, all these different things you can play with your body language. Vinh Giang And the big thing they’re screaming at home is they’re screaming out, yeah, but if I did that tonight with my partner, they’re going to freak out. They’re going to go, what the hell is that? What are you doing? Right? So all of a sudden now there needs to be a process for that. So Vin, what is the process for that? Thank you for asking. And the process for that is you have to understand, first of all, I love this concept of neutral ears. And a neutral ear is someone who has no preconceived idea of how you sound or how you communicate. And there are neutral ears everywhere. Before I met you, well, you’ve watched my content. But if I go out today and I go to get some gas or I go to the grocery store, there are neutral ears there. They don’t have any preconceived ideas of how I sound, how I talk with my hands, whether or not I’m aware of the power sphere or not. You could go out in those instances and try out these new behaviours. Run out on some neutral ears, I like that. Run out on some neutral ears and then you can play. So if normally you speak very quietly, tonight when you go to the gas station, go in there with vibrant volume and go, hey, quick question before I go in, do you have any chocolates with The peanuts? Yeah, yeah, you do. I’m going to come in. I’m coming in for them. Play, just do it, right? And just do it. Sometimes one look can put you back in your mould. Whereas when you do it in neutral ears and when you try new behaviours with no negative judgment, you know what it does? It helps those behaviours stick a little bit more. Steven Bartlett Yeah. Vinh Giang Because it helps you feel normal doing it. And then you have a chance now to play and be vulnerable. Look for neutral ears. I’ll set people KPIs. Every single day, set yourself a KPI. Maybe go to a gas station a little further from your house and play with your voice, play with your body language, be a bigger version of you. And as you do this more and more and more, you iron out the kinks. You’ll do it. You’ll feel wrong. That’s okay. I’m going to try it again. Oh, that felt right. And then you start to finesse. Because the first time someone plays the saxophone, it sounds terrible. But as they play it more and more and more and more, oh, they get better and better and better and better. So neutral is very important. Okay, so that’s a process. Then if you want your partner to be supportive, then you have to prime the conversation when you go home. So don’t immediately come home as this other version of you. Come home and prime it by saying, look, honey, I’ve been very quiet with my voice my entire life. And I just feel inspired to give you and the kids more of me. So if you see me play with my volume, if you see me play with my melody, could you please encourage me and support me on this journey? Because I want to be better. And do it me yeah oh that’s beautiful I love that yes and maybe we can do it together all of a sudden now this shifts the way they see the change you can do this with your colleagues as well Steven Bartlett I love that yeah then we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest not knowing who they’re leaving it for and the question that’s Been left for you What is one thing that you know to be true? Doing pauses, do you see that? Even though you can’t prove it. Vinh Giang That in the world we live right now, you can negotiate whatever reality you desire. Right now, in my own mind, I just have that belief and that belief has served me my entire life. And I have this voice in my head where it says, oh, when you die and there’s a greater being, they’re going to go, oh, you’re wrong. You’re wrong in telling people that you can negotiate whatever reality you desire. It’s not true. And let’s say that happens and I meet the creator and he says that to me. I’d still be glad I lived my life in that way. I’d still be glad I lived my life in that exact way. Steven Bartlett I mean, gosh, yeah. A much more productive, optimistic, effective way to live. Even if you’re wrong. Even if I’m wrong. Vinh Giang Yeah. Because I believe there are useful beliefs and then there are useless beliefs. I used to carry so many useless beliefs, Stephen. So many. And now I just choose to believe in beliefs that support me in being able to create the reality that I desire. It’s that even if I’m wrong, I still am glad I lived my life in this way. Because there’s a part of my brain right now that genuinely believes this, that there’ll be a day when I will be bored with this chapter of life and no longer want to teach communication Skills. I just hope that I have the courage. But I know that I’ll be able to live a chapter where I become a chef. I love cooking. And I know it to be true that if I wanted that and I’m ready for that chapter, I can write a chapter where I become a great chef. (Time 2:17:21)