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The Trump-Musk Fallout + a DOGE Coder Speaks + ChefGPT

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  • Musk-Trump Political Fallout
    • Elon Musk and Donald Trump had a public and escalating feud triggered by Musk’s opposition to a major budget bill benefiting Tesla and SpaceX.
    • This falling out revealed the fragility of their political alliance and the high personal stakes for Musk in government contracts and subsidies. Transcript: Kevin Roose Cooking us dinner. Well, Casey, the big tech news this week is that there is trouble in Washington. That’s right, Kevin. We’re having a broligarchy blow up of the highest order. So for many months now, there has been speculation about if and when President Trump and Elon Musk would sort of come into conflict, would see their bromance fade. And that is happening today in a way that is pretty crazy. Casey Newton Yeah, and I have to say, Kevin, I was somewhat cynical when all of this started about how real it was. But I would say by approximately midday on Thursday, all of it seemed extremely real. Kevin Roose Yes, it’s very real. So we are recording this on Thursday, June 5th, around 5 p.m. Eastern time. So by the time you hear this, things may have changed. It’s all happening very quickly. But Casey, let me set the scene for you. I’m in a meeting. I’m doing an interview. I’m not looking at my phone or Twitter or any of my incoming Slack messages or emails. I get out and I have about 200 people yelling at me that Elon Musk and Donald Trump are fighting. And this was something that we had been sort of keeping our eyes out for. Obviously, these are two very combustible personalities who like to fight, especially on the Internet. But Casey, what are they fighting about and how did this start? Casey Newton Well, it all started with the one big, beautiful bill, Kevin. That is the giant budget package that President Trump has been trying to move through Congress. It passed the House and is now being debated in the Senate. And it emerged over the past several days that Elon Musk did not like the big, beautiful bill. In fact, he did not think it was beautiful at all. And earlier in the week, he called it, quote, a disgusting abomination. Kevin Roose Yes, so he’s not a big fan of this bill. But that by itself does not seem like grounds for a legendary falling out with one of your former top aides and political allies. So what else is going on here other than a dispute over this budget bill? Casey Newton Well, let’s mention a couple of specifics about the bill, though, Kevin, because it is sort of the best evidence we have for what might be driving Elon to be so angry. So one thing is that this bill would eliminate an electric vehicle tax credit, which is, of course, beloved by Tesla owners. Elon is, of course, the CEO of Tesla. So this could potentially be a big financial hit to Tesla at a time when its stock has been falling precipitously. In addition, Axios reported this week that Elon was seeking a deal with the Federal Aviation Administration to get it to use Starlink for its communication infrastructure. Starlink is, of course, the network of satellites owned by SpaceX, another Elon company. So we there have two examples of what would have been fairly big deals for Elon in two of his different businesses that he pushed very hard for and did not get. And that leads me to, I think, the emotional or psychological answer to your question, which is why is Elon so mad? And to put it simply, Kevin, this is not what he thought he was paying for when he tried to buy the 2024 election. Right. Kevin Roose I mean, he was out on X this afternoon saying that basically Trump was only president because he was involved in the election. He donated all that money. He did all that campaigning. He is basically claiming credit for not only Trump’s presidency, but also the Republican congressional majorities that that party currently enjoys. So I saw him claiming credit for that stuff. And I thought, man, Trump is not going to like that. And as it turned out, Trump did not like that. No, he did not. Casey Newton He posted on his own social network, Truth Social, a number of things. He said that Elon was, quote, wearing thin. And so he had asked him to leave the administration, which, you know, I think was pretty well known. Later, though, he escalated things by saying, quote, the easiest way to save money in our budget, billions and billions of dollars is to terminate Elon’s governmental subsidies and Contracts. I was always surprised that Biden didn’t do it. Right. Kevin Roose And then Musk fired back talking about how Trump is mentioned in the Epstein files, and that’s why they have not been released. He’s also more recently talked about needing a new political party. And most recently, his most recent post as of this taping is another share of a video in which Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein are talking in 1992. Casey Newton Well, and don’t forget, Kevin, he also, quote, tweeted a right wing influencers who had asked in the wake of all this, should Trump be impeached? And Musk said, yes. He said, essentially agreeing with a post that said Trump should be impeached and replaced by J.D. Vance. So that was the post when I saw it, where I was like, okay, this is not two guys playing drama for the media. (Time 0:02:20)
  • Risks for Musk From Fallout
    • Elon Musk risks losing significant financial benefits including Tesla subsidies and government contracts if estranged from Trump.
    • Trump’s allies have even called for investigating Musk’s immigration status, highlighting political risks beyond business impact. Transcript: Kevin Roose Let’s start there. Casey Newton Well, I think it has the potential to do a lot of damage to Musk. Remember, one of the reasons why he made his way out of the administration was because his businesses are increasingly in trouble. And that begins with Tesla. Tesla has a number of challenges that we don’t have the time to get into today. But there’s a real sense that Musk has not been focused on that business and needs to return to it. Instead of doing that, though, he just amped up his feud with Trump. And today, Kevin, Tesla stock declined 14 percent. So I would not be surprised if it continues to decline in the days ahead as people kind of process what this means. But let me throw out an even spicier possibility for why this could be trouble for Musk. And I want to say that Elizabeth Lopato noted this in The Verge. But she reminded me that The Washington Post had reported that Musk began his career in the United States by working here illegally. And, you know, and Elizabeth is wondering, could this actually complicate his naturalization? Would Trump actually go after Musk and try to strip him of his citizenship? Let’s just say if that happened, it wouldn’t be the first person who thought he was a citizen of the United States who found himself deported during this Trump administration. Well, right. Kevin Roose And that seems a little like crazy when you just say it like that. But allies of the president are actually calling for this now. In fact, just recently, Times reporter, my colleague Tyler P says that Steve Bannon, the former Trump advisor, was calling for President Trump to not only cancel all of Musk’s contracts, But to initiate a formal investigation of his immigration status and maybe deport him. So I don’t know that this is likely to happen. This seems like maybe a bit of wishful thinking, but I do think it is going to be a very painful breakup for Elon Musk, not only because of his exposure through Tesla to some of these policy Moves and the billions of dollars that he would stand to lose if Tesla’s stock slide continues, but also because of things like government contracts for SpaceX, right? This is a man who has billions of dollars in exposure to government contracts. If some or all of those contracts are canceled by President Trump, he does tend to lose out that way. (Time 0:08:08)
  • Musk Was Trump’s Heat Shield
    • Musk’s departure removes a political ‘heat shield’ for Trump on unpopular decisions like federal cost-cutting.
    • Without Musk, Trump’s presidency will look different as he has to own decisions without Musk’s deflection. Transcript: Kevin Roose Yeah. Casey, what do you think this breakup means for President Trump? Casey Newton Well, think about how Musk functioned during the first few months of this Trump administration. He was Trump’s heat shield. He went out, he did a bunch of really unpopular things, and he largely took the blame for it. He took the blame for Doge dismantling wide swaths of the federal government, right? Now Musk is gone. And so there isn’t that same kind of heat shield out there. Trump is going to have to own his decisions more. And I think his presidency is going to look differently because of that. Because while this feud is undeniably entertaining and actually hugely consequential, I worry that something that’s going to be lost is how useful these two men were to each other During the period they were useful to each other, because they both got a lot out of this arrangement. Kevin Roose Absolutely. It was a very lucrative arrangement for both of them in some sense. And I wonder if that doesn’t end up sort of mending the feud here, if these guys get all of their rage out on each other and then sort of decide, well, if I’m Elon, I don’t really have anywhere Else to go. Right. I’ve burned my bridges with Democrats and on the left and the Republican Party now belongs to President Trump. And so I think if you’re him, you just may decide to stay out of politics altogether. But if you want to stay involved, like you’re kind of politically homeless if you’re Elon Musk. And so maybe you do end up wanting to come back to Trump at some point. But it’s too soon to say, I think. Casey Newton And in the meantime, he’s promising to create a third political party that will represent 80 percent of all Americans. And let’s just say I’m looking forward to seeing how that one plays out. So. (Time 0:11:05)
  • Friend Divorce in Washington
    • The Trump administration faces a potential internal ‘friend divorce’ where staff loyal to Musk must choose allegiance.
    • This raises questions about loyalty versus pragmatism among tech allies amid the Musk-Trump split. Transcript: Casey Newton Well, you know, Kevin, have you ever been in a situation where like two of your friends broke up with each other and then you had to choose which one you were still going to be friends with? Kevin Roose Yes, the friend divorce. Casey Newton Yes. Well, so there’s about to be a major friend divorce in Washington, D.C., and we’re going to have to see who sides with who. You know, the way that Trump tends to operate is by sort of showing loyalty to anyone who is loyal to him. And so if in the days ahead, the David Sachses of the world go to him and say, Elon is wrong, you are right, make America great again, I can imagine those people continuing to have a role In the administration. If on the other hand, they feel loyalty to Elon for whatever reason, and Elon is the world’s richest man and could give people a lot of reasons to be loyal to him, then you might see more Of a split. So this is one where we truly don’t know the answer to it, but I think is one of the most interesting questions to watch in the week ahead, which is what do the members of the tech right who Musk had brought to Washington, how do they respond to what has happened today? (Time 0:13:23)
  • Sahil Lavingia’s Doge Experience
    • Sahil Lavingia, Gumroad CEO, worked 55 days as a Doge software engineer inside the VA.
    • He got minimal orientation and had to navigate federal systems with restrictions, like limited software tools. Transcript: Kevin Roose Sahil Lavingia, welcome to Hard Fork. Sahil Lavingia Thanks for having me. Kevin Roose So, Sahil, you have been around Silicon Valley for a while. You had a pretty good thing going. You were one of the first employees at Pinterest. You then went on to found your own company, Gumroad. What made you interested in stepping away and moving to Washington, D.C. To work for the federal government? Sahil Lavingia Yeah, I’ve always wanted to work for the federal government. I think it’s such a cool opportunity. I mean, as a software engineer, which is my background, product designer, I think it’s hard to think of another opportunity for such a large impact. I think when I was even in high school, I always felt like I would eventually want to work for the federal government. When I left San Francisco, I remember feeling like the only things that’s like private businesses were responsible for were like little jewel boxes on Mission Street, you know, everything Else was like powered by public infrastructure. And so eventually, if you’re a, you know, competent software engineer, and you want to really have a maximized impact on the on the world, you know, the Steve Jobs sort of dent in the universe, You’d have to go work for the government eventually. Casey Newton I can imagine that the past few administrations might have been happy to accept your help. Why was this the moment that you wanted to step in? Sahil Lavingia Yeah, I mean, I actually applied to work at USDS back in the day. So I think around 2015, when Gumroad, we failed to raise our Series B, laid off most of the team, and I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do next, I applied to USDS. But I think my background at the time was still, it’s very startup-y, which is not exactly, you know, like the Venn diagram overlap of skill sets with what you may need in the federal government, You know, like the largest company on earth. So I did apply and I never heard back. And when this sort of Doe thing started to happen, I felt like, know, this meets the criteria of shipping code for the federal government. And yeah, I wanted to work there. Kevin Roose Now, how did the hiring process go? Like, do they do any kind of like ideological or political filtering? Did they ask you like, what do you think about, you know, foreign aid or, you know, USAID or anything like that? Sahil Lavingia I was asked, you know, did I vote for Kamala Harris, for example? Basically, if you voted for Kamala Harris, you shouldn’t waste your time here. You’re not going to get through whatever the process ends up looking like. This is pre-inauguration, so pre-inauguration, this kind of has to flow through the Trump transition team. And I said, look, I actually didn’t vote for Kamala. I didn’t vote for Trump either, so if they need that, then it’s not going to really work out. But anyway, yeah. So, so they, they, they asked these sorts of questions. I think my, my guess is, you know, this kind of came from, from Trump and that’s that side of the doge. I don’t think cared too much, but. Casey Newton So they, uh, they approve your application and like, then what happens? You just kind of get assigned a role? Sahil Lavingia Yeah. I mean, it’s interesting. I mean, I feel like I never even got like sort of like an approval, you know, like it wasn’t like congratulations or, you know, here’s your offer letter, here’s your salary, here’s your Boss, here’s your department, that sort of stuff. Basically what happened was I passed, I guess, to some degree. And eventually they said, hey, we have a role for you at the VA, at VA. As a software engineer, you should go talk to this sort of Doge team lead at the VA. And if that seems like something you’d want to do, let us know. And so that’s kind of what happened. And I talked to them. And eventually, they said, if you’re interested, you have to get fingerprinted here in D.C. And so it’s’s sort of like chicken and egg thing where it’s like you’re not going to get any information until you move to D.C. And once you move to D.C., you’re kind of, you know, you’re here. Right. So I never actually, I mean, even today, I still don’t know what my salary was. I assume it’s zero. But every once in a while I get like a check in the mail for some like de minimis payment, which I assume is to like make sure I’m not violating some minimum wage law. Kevin Roose Wait, you didn’t talk about your salary before you agreed to take this job? Sahil Lavingia I’m a phenomenal negotiator. Kevin Roose Yeah, that’s strange. Sahil Lavingia I didn’t know. I mean, the day, I’ll tell you the facts I knew, right? So I knew that I was supposed to show up 7.45 a.m. At the VA, the VACO sort of Veterans Affairs Central Office in D.C., you know, on March 17th. And actually, that’s all I knew. So, yeah, I didn’t know. I didn’t know who my boss was. I think I learned like the third day or something, like who I – like I didn’t know my role. You know, it doesn’t say your role like on your badge. I basically got my PIV card and I got a government laptop, which they call GFE, you know, government furnished equipment. (Time 0:21:08)
  • Doge Focused on Cost-Cutting
    • Doge’s main focus was cost-cutting rather than explicitly improving veterans’ experience.
    • The VA itself is surprisingly effective within its constraints, despite public perception of waste. Transcript: Sahil Lavingia Yeah, the Doge conversations were around cutting costs. I think there’s the Venn diagram overlap of at the end of the day, I’m an employee. At least that’s what my badge said. I’m an employee for VA. You know, you go through the VA specific There’s no Doge-specific onboarding. You’ve got a VA laptop. I have the iCare, a little memorandum on my backpack now. The VA wants, right? Nothing’s going to happen if the VA doesn’t want it. And so it kind of has to meet two criteria for something to be interesting, right? You have to sort of save money and make the veteran experience better, or at least not make it worse. But it wasn’t like an explicit conversation of like, okay, how do we actually ship software to make veteran experience better? I had a lot of those conversations, you know, because I was interested in doing that. So I just would meet with the office of the CTO, which actually was like pretty well developed at VA, because the USDS, you know, OG had kind of built a lot of a coalition there. They use GitHub, they have Slack, that sort of stuff. Kevin Roose That’s really interesting, because I think that the larger narrative that people have heard from Doge and from Elon Musk and people who are affiliated with him, is that sort of once You start looking, you know, under the hood inside these government agencies, you find all kinds of waste and fraud and abuse and skeletons in the closet. And, like, basically what you’re saying is that you were surprised by how well the VA worked. Sahil Lavingia Am I hearing that? Yeah, I was, yes, I was surprised by how effective the government is. You know, at the end of the day, though, like, you’re sort of defining effectiveness by, like, what you’re asked to do. And so I do think the government is asked to do a lot of weird stuff. They tend to be quite effective at doing those things. But Congress, I think, has a role to play in this. You can think of Congress as, like, the worst PM you’ve ever met, right? And you’re asked to like build an app with all these weird specifications. Like you’re doing a job, but you’re kind of like playing Twister as an organization to like do it. But surprisingly, yeah, I mean, there are many meetings I was in where I sort of maybe came in a little bit antagonistic to, you know, adversarial to like, why is this contract $40 million To like, you know, process claims or something? And I would leave being like, oh, I get it, you know, like that makes actually it’s pretty impressive. (Time 0:26:23)
  • Unfulfilled Doge Livestream Promise
    • Elon Musk sought ways to improve Doge’s public image, including live streaming meetings.
    • The promise to livestream did not materialize, reflecting inefficiencies and broken plans. Transcript: Sahil Lavingia I think, I mean, maybe I’m naively optimistic, but I think there was truly like a desire to solve problems because that’s how you save money at the end of the day is you solve problems, You kill two birds with one stone, that sort of thing. That’s what software can do. I think my guess is that, you know, for example, at the meeting, I suggested like we should live stream this meeting. I think like this sort of, this would help, right? Like if people saw like how the sausage was made and how, you know, we weren’t like scheming on like how to, you know, kill a bunch of African children. Like I think it would sort of help the brand image. And he embraced the idea. I mean, you know, he was like, that sounds awesome. We should do it next week. Let’s do it next week. We’ll start doing it next week. Unfortunately, there was no other meeting that I was a part of. So I never like got to follow up on that like next week thing. Like I didn’t get the invite. (Time 0:29:22)
  • Doge’s Budget Meeting Role
    • Doge lacked true firing power and mainly influenced federal contracting by attending meetings and questioning expenses.
    • Software engineers pointed out contracted costs often lacked domain understanding, aiming to shave off inefficiencies. Transcript: Casey Newton How did that engineers, work? Sahil Lavingia Yeah. So, you know, one of the Trump EOs is that the Doge team gets to sit in on a lot of contracting meetings. And so we sort of helped them review as many contracts as they could. And then beyond that, it’s just like lending my technical expertise, right? It’s just basically sitting in on a meeting where someone will say, you know, we’re, we’re like paying, you know, $4 million for this like chatbot on VA gov, like how, you know, and I’m Like, well, you know, like that would take me like a week to build and integrate. And, you know, could you explain why that costs so much more money? And, you know, just trying, you know, a lot of it was just like, there was somebody in the room that, that had coded before. I think that was a lot of it. It’s like, you’re, you’re, you’re, you’re paying a lot of money for things without the domain expertise to understand how much it should cost. So I was like the, hopefully somewhat the credible expert, quote unquote, who would come in and talk to booze or Deloitte and, and just be like, Hey, do you guys use cursor? Like how, you know, what are, what are the efficiency gains? Like, could you pass them on to us? Like, could you shave, like, 25% off the bill? That sort of thing. At the end of the day, like, we didn’t have any true – I think a lot of people think Doge had a lot of power to fire. And at least from my perspective at VA, we did not. Like, the EOs don’t give us that power. Like, unless VA is willing to give us the keys, like, we can’t drive the car. But we could sit in meetings and we could sort of, you know, kind of be annoying, right? (Time 0:30:58)
  • Culture Clash at Doge
    • Doge staff faced cultural clashes with long-serving civil servants, sometimes coming across as demanding and naive.
    • The transition period caused mistrust and misunderstanding, common during political appointee arrivals. Transcript: Sahil Lavingia I was not that person. I did not wear a hoodie. You know, I wore a shacket, a little bit of an upgrade. But yeah, I mean, I think that I’m sure to some degree that was happening, frankly. Like, I do think, I’m not saying this, I don’t think these stories are made up generally, you know? Like, I think they come from truth. And there was generally this vibe of, like, you know, they’re not going to help us or, like, they’re kind of going to, like, give us the wrong information and cause us to go down this path. Which I think is probably common in a transition period, right? Like I think every set of transitions, you have sort of a bunch of political appointees that come in and you have a new boss that doesn’t really know what they’re doing. Everyone’s had that manager that doesn’t really understand like why someone takes so long or why is it, you know, that sort of thing. (Time 0:33:07)
  • Sudden Firing Experience
    • Sahil was abruptly fired after speaking to a journalist; his access was suddenly terminated without explanation.
    • The ghosting confirmed to him that the problem was cultural, not personal. Transcript: Kevin Roose Is that still your understanding of why you were let go? Sahil Lavingia Yeah, I never heard anything from them. All I heard was like, did you run this by anyone at Doge? I said, no, I did not run it by anybody. And then, you know, a day later, my access, I just got an email from GitHub, basically, that was just like, you’re no longer a member of the VA on GitHub. And I was like, oh, what happened? You know, and turned out I was, I was riffed. But yeah, that’s all I’ve heard. I’ve never heard from anyone affiliated with Doge since then, you know, so like on anything I’ve done that like they, they just kind of ghosted, ghosted me. Kevin Roose That seems very sudden as a way to get laid off or to find out that you have been laid off. Did that process, that ghosting as you described it, change the way you felt about your time with Doge? Yeah. Sahil Lavingia I mean, it honestly made me feel like I wasn’t going crazy. Like I felt like I was misreading the room and I would just like, clearly we have a good goal. We, you know, like why do we keep making these kinds of mistakes? (Time 0:39:07)
  • Efficiency vs. Government Goals
    • Efficiency in government is beneficial if goals are clear, but must account for serving everyone, not just efficiency.
    • Simplification and modernization are preferable terms over efficiency due to political connotations around cuts. Transcript: Sahil Lavingia I do think there’s a, there’s a synthesis here, which is, I think if you define the goals accurately, then efficiency is better. Like if you’re able to meet those objectives but spend less money doing it or make it faster or require people to fill out less forms, then it is better. Just efficiency is better. I think the loss in translation thing is the Silicon Valley doesn’t serve every person. But if the government has a program, it’s going to have to serve everybody, right? So I think efficiency is still a good. I think it’s just really important to understand, like, what are the constraints? I personally think that the better word would be sort of like modernization or simplification. Like efficiency, I think, has now just such a loaded connotation to it, just like cut, get rid of, things like that. But I do think simplifying things, taking two systems that, you know, I think what tends to happen is the government just stacks things on top of things that exist. It doesn’t often refactor code and like combine systems. Like there’s a lot of agencies. Each agency spun up to do a new thing. And I do think it would be good to simplify every once in a while and sort of say, hey, these three things that came up in three different eras, we could now sort of merge. (Time 0:42:47)
  • Chefs Embrace AI Creativity
    • Top chefs are incorporating AI like ChatGPT as a creative tool to generate novel cooking ideas.
    • AI provides suggestions chefs might not have considered, serving as a patient and limitless collaborator. Transcript: Casey Newton Exactly. And look, a lot of our listeners, they’re going out to restaurants and there is now the possibility that you’re eating dishes that have been crafted or at least assisted in their development With AI. Kevin Roose And I thought it might be interesting to hear about how that works. You know, I wondered why I was seeing glue pizza on so many menus. Let’s bring in Pete Wells. Let’s bring him in! Casey Newton Pete Wells, welcome to Hard Fork. Well, hello. So how did you get interested in how chefs are using artificial intelligence? Well, there was this curious silence about it. Pete Wells Nobody was talking about it. So I wrote emails to a couple of chefs, and right away, one of them wrote back and said, I use it nonstop. It is my favorite kitchen tool. But strangely, none of the chefs I’m in touch with ever mention it to me. So he had the impression he was sort of the only one. And so, of course, I knew he can’t be the only one. So I started asking more people and got some pretty interesting responses back. Kevin Roose And tell us about this chef that you contacted who said that AI has become his favorite kitchen tool. Oh, sure. Pete Wells This is Grant Ackett’s, whose famous restaurant is Alinea in Chicago. And he also has Next. And he’s just in the fall opened a place called Fire. And he has been using it for all kinds of things. When he was opening Fire, the idea was that everything would be cooked in some way on or over or in flames, you know, or coals or embers. And so he asked ChatGPT to sort of like, you know, tell me some unusual cooking fuels from around the world and where it’s used and what it’s used for. And it started giving him back things like avocado pits and corn cobs, you know, some of which he knew about, but a lot of them he didn’t. You know, of course, it also comes back with cow dung, which is a cooking fuel, but not one that you can, like, charge a lot of money for. Yeah, (Time 0:49:58)
  • AI Sparks Chef Innovation
    • Chefs use AI to explore new flavor and texture ideas quickly under kitchen pressures.
    • AI helps chefs avoid repetitive menus and encourages continuous innovation and excitement. Transcript: Casey Newton You know, if you just sort of toss them a few ingredients, they can make it. And I think what your story gets at is that actually these chefs have all sorts of questions about how to do things. And if they want to expand their skill set, they don’t always know what is the next thing to do. But chatbots are proving to be pretty good at that. And as you point out, those chatbots, they’re extremely patient. You can ask them a question at any time of the day. Pete Wells And it sounds like the chefs have been pretty satisfied with the answers that they’re getting. I mean, more than one used the phrase out of the box as kind of what they go to it for because they know what they know, right? And they know that zucchini and basil go together, right? And there are certain combinations that are just go-tos for chefs over and over. And what they can get out of GPD is just something they’d never considered before. And for a chef, that’s really valuable because they’re in a high-pressure, high-volume environment. (Time 0:56:43)
  • Iterate for Better AI Recipes
    • Keep engaging AI with specific, iterative prompts to coax creative and surprising culinary ideas.
    • Don’t settle for first responses; persistence with AI improves recipe innovation. Transcript: Pete Wells Think, you know, I’ve started playing around with it just since I started reporting this story. And what I found is, yeah, the first response you get might be, you know, like, yeah, thanks, I could have done that myself. But when you go back to it and say like, no, not that, can you do better? You start to get interesting responses. I just, before we got on, was thinking about dinner. And I said, look, I’ve got a couple fennel bulbs, I’ve got an onion, I’ve got some garlic, olive oil, a couple other things, can of sardines. What can I do for dinner? And it said, well, you know, pasta with sardines and fennel. And I said, I’m not so into the carbs. Like, what can we do that’s lower? And then it gave me basically, you know, the same dish without the pasta, right? And I said, what if we just do a raw fennel? So I get a fennel salad. I said, oh, that looks interesting. Is there a way to take this in a Turkish direction? And then it started to get really interesting. It was like, yes, you could add some braised zucchini. You could add some fried eggplant. The more I went back to it, and I never got annoyed. Like, hey, that recipe I gave you, that was a really good recipe. What’s your problem, dude? Like, it will just keep batting the ball back at you, which is interesting. And like, the more specific you can be, the more surprising it will be. (Time 0:59:16)
  • Chefs’ Cultural AI Resistance
    • Creative resistance to AI is strong, with concerns about laziness and loss of originality.
    • Chefs see AI as a tool that cannot yet replace high-end culinary creativity and craftsmanship. Transcript: Kevin Roose Do you find anything similar among chefs and people who work in restaurants? Is there sort of a cultural resistance to AI? There’s a huge cultural resistance. Pete Wells Although I think in some of those other fields, like animation in particular, it has a lot to do with the fact that this thing can do their jobs. Now, you know, it can do their jobs already. It can’t really do what a chef does. Not at the sort of high-end creative level that the restaurants I wrote about are dealing in. You know, it’s not there yet. To the romantic idea that all of this stuff comes from the heart of the chef, who’s this heroic figure standing on a mountaintop, and lightning strikes him, and that’s dinner. That bothers people. People are bothered by what they see as the laziness of it, or just all of the famous kind of crap that AI generates. Like, we don’t want that crap in our food. It’s actually really deep. I ran into a couple of food writers last night, and one of them walked up to me and said, I hate that AI piece. And it was like, I think not the way I wrote it, but the facts in it. I hate what the reality is that you reported. (Time 1:01:01)
  • Steak Service Expectations
    • Kevin shares a ribeye steak experience where it was served rarer than ordered causing mild dissatisfaction.
    • Pete Wells advises that sending back the uneaten portion for warming is typical; free extras are rare and reserved for larger service failures. Transcript: Casey Newton So you’re right. Pete Wells This is factual. Casey Newton Okay. Thank you. You heard it here. You heard it here first. So the ribeye arrives and we get into it and it’s, it’s rare. It is, it is just, it is not medium rare. It is rare. And so, you know, you hate to be those people, you know, I never feel worse in my life than when I have to like ask somebody in the service industry for help in this way. But we keep looking at each other. We’re like, we did pay $90 for this. And like, it feels like it should come at the temperature we order. So we say, it’s kind of rare. Okay. Well, we’ll put it back on the grill. Okay. So here are my questions for you, Pete. Number one, there was some controversy in my table because one person was surprised that they just grilled the piece of meat again, because by this point, we’ve, you know, sort of hacked Off half of it, and they sort of take away that piece of meat rather than, you know, bringing us a new one. So question one is, is that sort of the common way that this is addressed? And then number two is, is any sort of like extra warranted in this? Is this a situation where the restaurant should throw in a free dessert or like do sort of something nice? Or is that just a, hey, these things happen in the kitchen sometime. We’re gonna grill your damn steak a little warmer. Get over yourselves. Your thoughts. Pete Wells Well, yeah, I didn’t understand the first part of the question. They took some of the steak back, but not the entire steak? Casey Newton Well, yeah, because we, you know, we kind of like hacked off a few pieces. Pete Wells He’s asking whether they should have given him and his friends a whole new ribeye. Casey Newton That’s right. Pete Wells Ooh, I mean, that’s a lot of, I mean, that’s a lot of money for the restaurant, but it’s a lot of money for you. It’s typical, especially with something like that, to just take the uneaten part and send it back to the kitchen. I don’t believe I’ve ever seen a whole new steak come out of the kitchen. That’s what I thought for what it’s worth. Yeah, I’ve been to a lot of steakhouses. And then, you know, as far as, you know, doing something extra, I mean, no, they’re not obligated. They are, I think, kind of obligated to get it right. Yes. Right? This is what we ordered and it’s not what we ordered. And especially with something like that, we’re like, I mean, did it ruin your night to have a couple bites of rare steak, right? So I wouldn’t call that a traumatic experience. When it gets into trauma, you know, like. Casey Newton You know, you and your friends get over it. That’s great. Listen, this is exactly what I wanted. I wanted my my expectations to be managed by a professional. And now they’ve been managed. Right. Pete Wells I mean, you like where I think you start to need or if you’re a certain kind of restaurant and you really want to go over and above where you kind of need to send something out to the table Or do something extra or knock something off the check is where they’ve kind of suffered a little bit. They waited 30 minutes, right? They waited 30 minutes for their steak or, you know, or somebody spilled wine. Casey Newton Okay. So in your view, something pretty major has to happen to get into the free dessert territory. Yeah. You have to be, I think, become sort of unhappy, right? And it doesn’t sound like you got there. I didn’t feel wrong, but I will say that, you know, not that we needed some grand apology or anything, but I was sort of expecting somebody would be like, oh, we’re sorry about that. Let us take care of that. You know, just like a sort of like real quick thing. That didn’t really arrive. And so that was just sort of curious to me. I don’t know. Pete Wells Yeah, that’s definitely a service issue because you would hope your server would say, oh, I’m so sorry. It’s not the way you’d like it. Even if they don’t admit wrongdoing. They don’t have to say, oh, my God. I can’t believe that. I don’t know what’s going on back there. Like, just to say, you know, I’m sorry. Casey Newton It’s not what you were hoping for. Let me take care of that. I felt like we were getting the looks like, oh, here we go with these people. You know, it was one of the, it’s like, oh, it’s one of these kind of tables. Yeah. They’ve got opinions about the meat temperature. Yeah. Pete Wells Now, in my experience, like, that sort of very fine-tuned sense of hospitality of like, I’ll apologize even if I don’t think the restaurant’s in the wrong. I’ll apologize because it’ll make them feel better. That is sort of what separates 95, 6, 7% of the restaurants from the really, really good, careful ones. (Time 1:03:39)