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Trump Is Selling a Phone + the Start-Up Trying to Automate Every Job + Allison Williams Talks ‘M3GAN 2.0’

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  • Trump Phone’s Conflict Potential
    • The Trump family is launching a gold-colored Android smartphone and a mobile virtual network operator called Trump Mobile.
    • This venture raises serious conflicts of interest given regulatory oversight and potential for political influence. Transcript: Kevin Roose Well, Casey, what are we talking about this week? Well, Kevin, if you hear an ominous ringing in the distance, you may be hearing the Trump phone. Oh, no. What’s the Trump phone? Casey Newton Well, Kevin, this week, the Trump family announced two initiatives. One, a new cell phone provider called Trump Mobile. The other, a new forthcoming smartphone. It’s gold colored. It has Trump branding. And they’re calling it the T1, which is the same thing they call the first Terminator movie. I’m sold. So, Casey, let’s talk about this. Kevin Roose What is actually going on here? What are they selling and what is this mobile service they are operating? Casey Newton Yeah, well, look, obviously the Trump family has a lot of initiatives. They love to do a lot of branded merchandise. For the most part, it all just sort of, you know, washes over me and I don’t pay that much attention to it. But once, you know, the president of the United States’ family says we’re doing a smartphone and we’re going to have a cellular network, I think, well, Kevin, we should probably learn A little bit about that. OK? Yeah. So teach me. So there are sort of two aspects of this to talk about. There is the cell network, what’s called a mobile virtual network operator or MVNO. That’s Trump Mobile. And then there’s the phone. Why don’t we start with the MVNO? Kevin Roose Casey, what is an MVNO? Casey Newton Well, there are these real cell networks like the ones owned by AT&T and Verizon, and they spend billions of dollars to build networks all over the country. But they wind up with this unused capacity, and that creates the space for the MVNO to come in and say, hey, why don’t you let us buy that capacity at a wholesale price, and then we’ll resell It to other people and perhaps make a profit. And believe it or not, Kevin, this has turned out to be a pretty good business for some people. For example, have you heard of Mint Mobile? I have actually. This is the one that is run or part owned or was part owned by the actor Ryan Reynolds. Yeah, that’s right. So it was founded in 2016 and sold to T-Mobile eight years later for more than a billion dollars, which is not a bad price given that they didn’t even have to build any cell phone towers. Kevin Roose Yeah, I remember reading about this and reading that Ryan Reynolds had somehow made something like $300 million by selling this MVNO thing to T-Mobile. And I thought, that sounds like a great business. Maybe I should learn about it. And then I never did. Casey Newton Well, I was just learning about it the other day, Kevin, because one of our fiercest competitors in the podcasting space, Smartless, the podcast hosted by Jason Bateman and Will and Arnett and Sean Hayes, they have launched their own MVNO. It’s Smartless Mobile. Really? Huh. So what you described to me just now is like a basically surplus shop for cell phone service. Kevin Roose Like if you’re Verizon and like say only 60% of your tower capacity is used, you could like sell that extra space to an MVNO who could then sell it to customers or like, how does it work? Casey Newton Yeah. Well, so here’s the twist. Here’s how I would pitch an MVNO. It’s cheaper for worse service. Okay. So, you know, if you have like a Verizon or an AT&T plant, my guess is you’re going to be spending, I don’t know, 80 plus bucks a month on your service, but you know, you’re going to get to Use your cell network during all the busy times, you know, you’re going to get priority. If you’re on an MVNO, though, your service might be really slow during busy times, but in exchange for that, you might only pay $30 or $40 a month. Trump Mobile says they’re going to sell for $47.45 per month, which appears to be a reference to the 45th and 47th presidents, Donald Trump. Kevin Roose So, okay, they’re going to sell this service. Is it running on Verizon or AT&T or like one of the big mobile carriers? Or like, how does it actually, who are they subcontracting for? Casey Newton So my understanding is that they’re renting capacity from a group of those. It’s not just one of those. They’re going to sort of go sort of, you know, bundle up unused capacity from a bunch and create the network that way. I see. Kevin Roose Okay. So that is the cell phone service that the Trump family is going to start offering. Now we have to talk about this phone here. I know the following things about this phone. One, it’s gold. Yes. Probably not actual gold. Gold colored. Two, it’s an Android phone. Yeah. Three, it is billing itself as being made in the USA. That’s right. So all of those three things are correct, but I’m sure you know more about this phone. Tell me what there is to know. Casey Newton Well, so they’re calling it the T1 Phone 8002 Gold version, which sounds kind of like a Taylor Swift album. It will purportedly be sold for $499. The family has suggested you pre-order it now for $100. But there are many, many remaining questions, Kevin, about what this thing is. We’ve seen exactly one rendered image of this phone on the Trump mobile website. There have been questions about whether this is actually a photo of a phone or maybe just a Photoshop render. Some people are (Time 0:01:59)
  • Monetizing Influence Through Politics
    • Trump uses his public office to monetize influence through ventures like the Trump phone, meme coins, and NFTs.
    • This sets a worrying precedent of leveraging political power for private profit, undermining established norms. Transcript: Casey Newton Private gain. And while I’m not going to make the case that the Trump phone is the absolute most important story in the week, you know, given all of the tensions abroad, the protests at home, I do think It is worth pointing out to our audience just how many conflicts are baked into an idea as simple as let’s have a phone and let’s have an MVNO. Totally. Kevin Roose I mean, what I keep thinking about when I hear these stories about the various spinoff businesses that the Trump family is starting, I just feel so bad for Jimmy Carter. You know, like they made Jimmy Carter put his peanut farm in a blind trust when he took office because owning a peanut farm was seen as a potentially bad conflict of interest. And I’m just glad Jimmy Carter—well, I wish Jimmy Carter were still around, rest in peace. But I’m sort of glad he’s not around to see the absolute depths of side hustles that the Trump family has gotten itself into. Yeah. Casey Newton Well, so let’s talk about a few of the areas, Kevin, where this might raise a conflict. One is just the fact that telecommunications is a heavily regulated industry. Trump appoints the head of the Federal Communications Commission, which oversees the telecom industry. So now, if you’re Brendan Carr, the head of the FCC, every time you go to make a policy you’re probably going to be asking yourself well what does this mean for trump mobile at the trump Kevin Roose Phone i have to imagine that this trump mobile mvno thing is going to start off being a very small operation but if it were ever to grow into something that was actually competing with The big mobile giants i think it absolutely would be a very ripe conflict of interest there. Casey Newton Well, and now let me throw another conflict at you, Kevin. It’s extremely common when a new smartphone comes out for a manufacturer like Samsung to go to some of the tech companies out there and say, hey, we have a new phone coming out. Would you like to make a deal with us? Pay us a certain amount of money and we will put your app on our phone? Well, now imagine that you’re Amazon or you’re Meta, and you want to curry favor with the Trump administration because you have a huge amount of business before the government, and You’re still working to make inroads with Trump and his family. Wouldn’t this be a great time for you to come along and say, hey, Donald Trump, you name your price, we would love to get Amazon on the Trump phone. We would love to get Instagram on the Trump phone. And all of a sudden, you have opened up a new avenue essentially for bribery for these companies to curry favor with the Trump administration. Kevin Roose Yeah, it’s fascinating. And it’s so troubling for all the reasons you just outlined. But I also think there’s a sense in which the Trump family’s various business endeavors during this term are really kind of giving us a roadmap to the ways that people have found to monetize Influence in the last couple of years. Like, just look at the meme coin business that it has entered and that is actually making like quite a bit of money for the Trump family. That is something that did not really exist in any scaled way a couple of years ago. But now, not just politicians, but like lots of celebrities and influencers, people who sort of have their 15 minutes of fame, that is one of the ways that they sometimes try to cash in. It seems like this MVNO thing is also becoming a way that people like the Smartless podcast guys, like Ryan Reynolds, like sort of all the other celebrities who have gotten in on this Kind of deal, that is a way to sort of turn attention and reputation and influence and fame into money. And so I think it’s just, it’s worth saying, I think this is something that a lot of politicians are probably going to pay attention to and potentially try to replicate. Because if Donald Trump is able to sort of monetize his influence, I (Time 0:10:28)
  • Mechanize’s Total Job Automation Plan
    • Startup Mechanize openly aims to automate every job using reinforcement learning in simulated work environments.
    • They start with software engineering but envision AI replacing all kinds of labor, accelerating economic growth dramatically. Transcript: Casey Newton Mechanize. Kevin Roose Yes, this was a fun one to write. This was a startup in San Francisco that got started earlier this year. They raised a bunch of money from people you probably know. Patrick Collison was one of their investors. Jeff Dean, a big AI honcho at Google, was another one. They are a very buzzy startup. And what attracted me to writing about them was that they have said that their goal is to automate all labor. They want to take away everyone’s jobs, yours, mine, everyone we know, and replace them with AI. And they think they can do this in the coming decades with a new type of reinforcement learning system. Casey Newton Well, that is a promise we have heard from a number of Silicon Valley companies, but maybe none as directly as the mechanized founders are pitching it. What exactly is their secret sauce? Kevin Roose Well, they are building what they call reinforcement learning training environments, basically simulated environments that these new AI agents can use to learn how to do various White collar jobs. And they believe that this approach can scale not just to software engineering, which is the first job that they’re trying to automate, but to all other kinds of jobs eventually as well. And I thought this was an important conversation to have on the show because we’ve been talking about AI and jobs for the last couple of episodes now. I think this is a conversation that is beginning to grow more and more important and more and more urgent. And there’s starting to be evidence of some job displacement from AI. And then along come these guys at Mechanize who say, well, this is actually only (Time 0:20:20)
  • Automation Spurs Economic Growth
    • Automating all labor could unlock unprecedented economic growth and abundance of goods and services.
    • Historical automation benefits most people, suggesting a positive long-term outlook despite fears. Transcript: Kevin Roose Matthew Negge, welcome to Hard Fork. Matthew Barnett Hi. Ege Erdil Hi. Kevin Roose So I had a lot of fun writing this story about Mechanize, the company that you all founded, along with your third co-founder, Tammy Bessaraglu, earlier this year. Like a lot of AI companies I cover who sort of pretend not to be automating jobs or they say, you know, we’re just making helpful co-pilots and assistance for workers. We’re not going to replace their jobs. You all were actually coming out and saying, yes, we absolutely want to automate jobs and not just a couple of them. We want to automate all jobs. So tell me what inspired you three to leave Epoch AI, the research firm where you were before this, and start this company, and to be so open about the agenda of automating labor. Ege Erdil Yeah, I guess when we were at Epoch AI, which is a non-profit resource organization which had the mission of informing society about trans and artificial intelligence, we did a bunch Of research into the economics of AI. And as part of that research, we looked into what would be the impact of AI that could substitute for human workers across the economy on the economic growth rate. And a very robust conclusion of that research was that it would speed up economic growth by enormous amounts, like unprecedented amounts, maybe by 10 times, maybe more compared to Current rates. And that would unlock like such a vast abundance of not just like material goods, but also services that today can only be provided by humans, technological progress, like medical Progress that currently, no matter how much money you have, you can’t really purchase. We think if AI automates everyone’s job, because we can scale the AI workforce so much more than we can scale the human workforce, that leads to this vast abundance, enormous increase In a variety of goods, new medicine, new technologies, et cetera, and makes people’s lives much better. Casey Newton So this is a story we’ve heard from other AI founders. They want to unlock a world of radical abundance. And I think a lot of our listeners hear that and they think, okay, here comes the Silicon Valley hype guys, and they’re out there raising funds. And so they’re going to tell me this beautiful story so that they can raise billions of dollars and they’ll get rich. How do you respond to the idea that this is kind of just a bunch of hype that you’re selling to kind of benefit your own project? Matthew Barnett I guess I would say that the difference between just hype that someone’s speculating about and something that’s real is you can test it empirically. You can look whether it’s an implication of (Time 0:22:26)
  • Short-Term Pain in Automation
    • Although automation generally improves lives long-term, many struggle in the short run during transitions.
    • This tension raises urgent questions on how to support affected workers immediately. Transcript: Matthew Barnett That they’re wrong. Kevin Roose Well, I have studied the history of automation. I wrote a whole book that touched on the history of automation. And one of the things that I want to just really impress upon you all is that I do agree with the statement that automation and technology broadly generally improve people’s lives in The long run. I don’t think, for example, a lot of us would willingly switch places with our great-great They had hard, back-breaking lives of manual labor. But people don’t live in the long run. People live in the short run, and in every technological revolution that we’ve ever had, there have been people who struggle, who fall through the cracks, who aren’t able to sort of Seamlessly make the jump from one era to another. So what do you say to those people who look at you and say, well, I get that this future of radical abundance may be possible somewhere down the line. But for me, in the year 2025, what this looks like is my job getting automated away and me not having any way to pay my bills. Ege Erdil Well, I guess a few things. (Time 0:25:33)
  • Gradual AI Job Automation Expected
    • Full job automation will likely take decades; early AI will augment, not replace, professions like software engineering.
    • The approach focuses on automating tasks first, boosting productivity and wages initially. Transcript: Ege Erdil Cannot compete. Casey Newton So you guys published a blog post recently where you wrote about, in part, the history of automation in software engineering. And you note that automation has been coming to software engineers over a period of decades. And as that has happened, their jobs largely have not been eliminated. So what are you seeing right now that is making you say, okay, it really is different this time, and we’re going to be able to go that last mile and actually fully automate everything and Matthew Barnett Take away these software engineers jobs? I’m not sure we’re actually saying that something is definitely different this time. In fact, two of my co-founders think that maybe full automation will take many decades. And so I don’t think we’re actually taking the strong view that there’s something different in the next five or 10 years such that everyone will lose their jobs. I actually think that especially in the next five years, we’ll probably see a continuation of past trends, which is that AI automates some tasks within professions. It doesn’t completely automate the entire profession in the sense of completely replacing most workers in those professions. So to take the example of software engineering, we think that these coding assistants will be used to help software engineers. We don’t necessarily think that the coding assistants will be able to do all the jobs that a software engineer can do. So, for example, a software engineer often needs to coordinate across teams. They often need to plan projects, test the software to make sure that it’s up to the design specifications. They need to do a lot of these different types of things which are very hard to automate, which aren’t just under the label of coding. Can just do coding, but it can’t do these other things, that in fact, it will lead to a productivity increase in these professions and probably raise wages for software engineers, even Though it’s not taking over their entire job. Of course, in the long run, we just expect that it will be able to take over people’s jobs, but this isn’t because of some specific thing that we think is different now. We just have a projection of here’s how long we think it will take for AI to replace everything. And (Time 0:27:50)
  • AI Trains in Virtual Work Simulations
    • Mechanize builds virtual work environments mimicking professional tasks for AI training via reinforcement learning.
    • These simulated ‘video games’ let AI develop skills required for real-world jobs before deployment. Transcript: Casey Newton What it is that you’re actually building. Yeah. Ege Erdil So what we’re building is a resource learning process where we will design essentially virtual work environments, you could say, for models to acquire the skills that human professionals Have that enable them to do their jobs. Like using a spreadsheet, maybe. Yeah, like using a spreadsheet, using common software tools that people use in their work, like, I don’t know, Slack for messaging, you know, checking their email. If they were doing software engineering, then using tools like GitHub. So what we’re doing is creating these work environments with scoring. So basically, we have a bunch of tasks in these environments, and we can score a model to see, did the model do this task well? How well did the model do this task? And then we give this to an AI company, and they are able to train their model in this environment. So they handle the parts where they train it, but we are the ones who supply them the environment in which they will be doing this training. Kevin Roose The way your co-founder Tame explained it to me that I thought was a useful model for my understanding was that you are basically creating what amounts to like very boring video games, Like a video game in which like the goal of the video game is to be a software engineer or be a lawyer or be an accountant. And you sort of set up this environment and then the AI agent goes and plays it a bunch of times and gets the signal for whether they failed or succeeded. And ideally gets better over time until it’s good enough to actually do the full job. Is that more or less correct? I think that’s a good description, yeah. What do you think the next target (Time 0:30:15)
  • Emphasize Transparency and Empathy
    • Be honest and transparent about intentions to automate jobs and its societal impact.
    • Recognize people’s fears and approach the transition with empathy for affected workers. Transcript: Matthew Barnett That type of thing makes a lot of sense. Kevin Roose Well, as I said in the article, I am glad that you all are being honest about your intentions. I think it is useful to have an honest and open conversation about the possibility of job loss through automation with AI. I do hope that you will find some sort of empathy for people who are really scared about what’s coming. We hear from listeners every single week on the show who say that their jobs are changing in ways that they don’t necessarily like because of AI, who are anxious that their bosses are Trying to automate them out of a job. So I would just say like, my free advice to you as you go out making your pitch about automating all jobs is just like, there are people on the other side of that. And I think those people are concerned and worried, especially when they hear guys from San Francisco, you know, talk about how they’re excited to automate their jobs. Matthew Barnett Yeah, I guess I would say it’s difficult when you whenever you’re doing something that you think has enormous benefits, but has some costs. And in those cases, you can look at the people who are bearing costs or who fear that they might suffer the costs. And it’s just like a very difficult thing to do. I mean, of course, I have empathy for those people, but I acknowledge that it feels kind of cold for me to say that I feel empathy for you, but I just think that these benefits (Time 0:40:12)
  • M3GAN 2.0’s AI Authenticity
    • The movie M3GAN 2.0 integrates real AI concepts deeply, appealing to informed audiences.
    • Its thoughtful incorporation of tech themes elevates it beyond typical sci-fi fare. Transcript: Allison Williams Alison Williams, welcome to Hard Fork. Oh my gosh, what an honor. Thank you so much for having me. Kevin Roose It’s such a pleasure. Casey and I had a double date on Monday night. We both went out to see Megan 2.0, had a great time. And what struck me about the movie is it was actually quite impressively literate about some of the nerdier, more arcane parts of the AI and tech universe. So, like, I’m just curious, how much research did you do going into this of, like, concepts like instrumental convergence, which, like, only, you know, a couple hundred real AI nerds In San Francisco talk about? Allison Williams And some actors and actresses now. We are evolving. A lot of research. On the first movie, I did a lot more research into robotics and engineering and AI and women in tech and all of those things because I couldn’t be farther from a woman in STEM. I’m a woman in English and film and television. And this one, I did much more of like a physical preparation. But yes, I mean, to be able to speak cogently about these things and also make it sound like you know what you’re talking about. It’s always smart to just keep up with the reading and what there is to know about what’s going on. But yeah, I give a lot of that credit to Gerard. He goes, he doesn’t just like do the superficial pass where it’s like gobbledygook that means nothing. We really do want exactly what just happened. We want praise from the 100 people who know what we’re talking about. And honestly, like we can go home now. This was really all we needed. Thank you guys so much for having me. Casey Newton Watching it, I did have that feeling of, oh, they put real ideas in this movie. It really does feel like it has been keeping track of a lot of the big discussions that are happening about the role (Time 0:44:39)
  • Toddler Uses ChatGPT Queries
    • Allison Williams shares how her curious toddler uses ChatGPT as a helpful, almost authoritative, source.
    • She manages his stimulation by controlling AI usage to balance learning with overwhelm. Transcript: Kevin Roose Now, I think we have kids around the same age. Mine’s three. Would you give your kid an open AI or just an AI in general toy? Allison Williams Okay, well, here’s the deal. So as you know, with a kid at this age, our son is like incredibly curious. I love the sight of him and I love how inquisitive he is and also how dissatisfied he is with any surface level. He can feel when you’re phoning something in or when you just don’t have expertise. And in his least condescending way possible, he’ll always ask for like supporting documents and evidence. And he’ll be like, let’s go. They really do the citation needed thing. Let’s flip to the back. Let’s go through a bibliography. Let’s like see where, where we can go deeper here. Let’s go past the Wikipedia of it all and get some, some primary sources. So often when I am trying to explain something to him, like jet propulsion, which he asked me about last week, I turned to, as we all do, ChatGPT. And I will speak into the speaking thing for like a hands-free thing if I’m multitasking. And I’ll say, in a way that a three and a half year old can understand, can you explain how a rocket launches and how jet propulsion works? And then Arlo watches this little orb on the phone just like going in and out. It’s like the least stimulating graphic experience on the planet. And yet his eyes are, I’m watching something so intense happen. Like his brain is not able to comprehend what this interaction is that’s taking place. And he’s hearing all this information and it’s distilled perfectly and it’s timed perfectly. And it’s exactly what he wants to know. And then he’ll ask a follow-up question. And then the look on his face is so troubling that I will like cut it off and make him stop talking. The other day, we were talking about a subject. I can’t remember what it was. It might have been something related to like animal husbandry or something. It’s a long story. We’ve been talking about baby deers a lot. Anyway, so he said, can you ask Chapatiti? And I was like, Chapatiti? Who is Chapatiti? And then he was like, the person who talks from your phone and answers my questions. And I was like, oh, my God, we are finished using this technology as parents. This is upsetting. And honestly, like, this is free for you, OpenAI. But Chapatiti is like a very cute and very benign sounding nickname for an extremely powerful machine. So I (Time 0:49:12)
  • Human Flaws Protect Acting Jobs
    • Allison Williams feels AI threatens acting jobs but ironically her human imperfections protect her role.
    • AI dialogue drafts sometimes need human refinement to feel convincingly human and natural. Transcript: Kevin Roose You feel about this technology. Allison Williams It’s obviously intimidating. Like my mind goes instantly, of course, to job security because I’m like, okay, what about my job can’t be performed by an algorithm or an AI or a computer or something like that? And the answer, honestly, is like a little bit embarrassing, but it’s the parts of us that are flawed and that make mistakes and that don’t do things perfectly, like a hair out of place That looks normal or a smudge of lipstick or a lack of continuity here or a slurred word occasionally in a sentence the way we all speak kind of or handwriting that’s not consistent. All of those things are so human. I kind of rely on the tiny moments where I’m bad at my job to save my job, frankly, because I think that’s how art ends up feeling human to me is the parts of it that aren’t executed perfectly. Casey Newton Well, you know, my sort of question in this vein was like a few years from now, it’s time to make Megan 5.0. They come to you. They say, Allison, we have so much footage of you. We have, you know, so many. Allison Williams Oh, I’ve been anticipating this for since the first movie. Okay. Keep going. Keep going. Keep going with your question. Sure. Casey Newton So, I mean, if they come to you, they say, look, we’re going to write you, you know, a really nice check and you don’t actually have to do anything. You can like, you know, stay at home, go make another movie, like whatever you might like to do. We’ll just sort of make Megan 5.0 using your digital likeness. What’s your like gut reaction to that kind of offer? Allison Williams I’ve actually contemplated this from like a contract standpoint that I would want my likeness compensated, first of all, to the same amount that my actual personhood would be. So that’s the first one is I would want to make it as cost prohibitive, not to say that I’m like enormously expensive to hire i just mean like you know i would i would not want it to be the vastly Cheaper option and i actually think for now at least um it is the more laborious and difficult option so luckily i feel safe there unless you’re going for an uncanny kind of thing but even For the megan movies like we do a combination of human and machine it’s crucial to our achievement of Megan and for Amelia and for all of the iterations of all of these little beings that We have in this movie. I don’t want to give them all away, but they’re all a collaboration. But there will always have to be, I think, a human component for all of it just because of what it is. And so I think that even if they want to do, let’s say like something happens to Gemma, she’s no longer alive and she’s reanimated as AI in the, let’s say that’s the situation in Megan 5. I may have just written it with you guys on this podcast. I’m going to, what do I do? Like put a flag in it? Like IP, this is mine. Yeah, that’s your one. No, that belongs to the Hard Fork podcast now. Sorry. Kevin, be nice to the guest. We don fine it would be an awesome collab um anyway so i think like if that were the case they would still at this point need me to be involved um need my physical someone’s physical body To be involved for it to work even from like a motion capture standpoint but i do want to like I guess I should copyright my likeness. I don’t know. It’s already, I already watch cuts of trailers for movies that I’m in that have like lines of dialogue that aren’t in the movie that are said by an AI version of my voice that don’t end up Making it to air. They’re just in the draft versions of them. And then I go in and record them. That is always really strange because it doesn’t exactly sound like me. But for a second, I’m like, wait, I don’t remember saying that. Oh, okay. That’s AI. And it’s (Time 0:54:20)
  • M3GAN 2.0’s Nuanced AI Message
    • M3GAN 2.0 presents a nuanced view of AI, moving beyond the ‘AI is bad’ trope.
    • The film invites ethical reflection on real AI’s role in society today. Transcript: Kevin Roose That the film has a moral, something different than AI bad? Allison Williams Yeah, for sure. I think it had to be because I think making a movie with the moral AI bad would be like a deeply dick move in an era where AI is. Like, we just, it would be sort of like um i don’t know it would just be obnoxious to make a movie that’s like psych we think this is bad and should go away but you’re stuck with it so you know What i mean it would just be counterproductive whereas i feel like the movie we made is asking a much more nuanced question. It just feels like, yeah, we’re all on kind of a similar moral journey to the one that Gemma’s on. And by the end of the movie, without giving anything away, we hear exactly how she feels on the topic. And it is, shocker, very different from the way it is at the beginning of the movie. Not that being cautious is a bad idea, but just that there needed to be asterisks to her argument because of where we are as a society. And there just are certain realities to that that she needed to contend with. Yeah. Casey Newton In the first movie, there’s a wonderful scene of a kind of like combination dance murder in (Time 1:01:10)